Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x14 - "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2"

[Gonzo]

It makes no sense. None of it does. This story is an utter incoherent mess.

I think it's more like that it isn't actually over yet, even though the show runners claim it is.

Let's see what the short treks show us.

That could easily cover the probe origin.

 

[Alan Roi]

How about a little humor?

Discovery: The stakes.

Season 1: All life in the whole multiverse
Season 2: All sentient life in our galaxy
Season 3: A few clever people on Earth.
Season 4: Burnham BLT's lettuce is wilted.

that will make so many people happy, except for the idea that Burnham still exists. Maybe make that last one be a problem for Number One who came across a sandwich that fought like a Kelpian (hah! I knew I'd get to use that!).

 

[SJGardner]

that will make so many people happy, except for the idea that Burnham still exists. Maybe make that last one be a problem for Number One.

Only if Season 5 is all about Tilly being late for a meeting because of a raging hangover from the night before.

 

[Alan Roi]

Only if Season 5 is all about Tilly being late for a meeting because of a raging hangover from the night before.

Beer Pong is a Cruel Mistress.

 

[Alan Roi]

The probe came from the far future as shown by its advanced technology and probably used the signal as the ideal way to lock in the correct timezone to attack the shuttle and gain access to Airiam.

We still haven't seen who, how or when the prob is sent into the past, until we do a reset is still possible.

Unless they do just ignore it but based on what I have seen and their attempts to align everything else I find it odd that they would ignore it.

If Burnham did her job, Discovery will have no easy access to the timeline that probe came from.

 

[Michael]

The probe came from the far future as shown by its advanced technology ...

I‘m not sure what ”advanced technology definitely from the far future“ even means anymore in Discovery. They were sure the Red Angel suit must be from the future as well. Maybe they erred again when they analyzed the probe and it really wasn‘t future tech?

Come to think of it, it would have been kind of clever if it wasn‘t their probe coming out of the portal but one of the various Control/Section 31 attack vehicles we saw in the finale, piggybacking its way through the portal Burnham was creating to travel back to Kaminar.

 

[Gonzo]

No, in her timeline Control had always developed. She had eventually found out it was from data from the sphere and moved it to meet up with Discovery. It was Control going into the past in an attempt to jumpstart its creation early that doomed it (as far as we know).

Yeah right now that looks like the sequence of events.

It's possible that Dr Burnham's attempts at stopping the AI in the future forced it to take drastic steps and intervene in the past, opening the way for it to be identified earlier.

Or alternatively it could be Burnham herself that causes the Control that is on the Discovery to escape using a probe and go back in time.

Leland himself said that it wasn't over, perhaps it knew that for certain.

Like I said I don't think it's over, not by a long shot.

 

[Gonzo]

If Burnham did her job, Discovery will have no easy access to the timeline that probe came from.

Predestination, it always happened this way just as we found with the signals.

I‘m not sure what ”advanced technology definitely from the far future“ even means anymore in Discovery. They were sure the Red Angel suit must be from the future as well. Maybe they erred again when they analyzed the probe and it really wasn‘t future tech?

Come to think of it, it would have been kind of clever if it wasn‘t their probe coming out of the portal but one of the various Control/Section 31 attack vehicles we saw in the finale, piggybacking its way through the portal Burnham was creating to travel back to Kaminar.

It's possible, we won't know for sure until/if we see the sequence of events leading up to it travelling back in time.

We will just have to wait and see.

 

[Michael]

My money is on ”they will never continue with this storyline ever“. They might revisit Burnmum and/or Control, but I don‘t think they will ever reference the messy Red Angel storyline with the signals etc. again.

ETA: Would be kind of cool if there ever was a Trek novel attempting to reconcile every contradictory thing in season two. @Alan Roi, are you up to the challenge?

 

[Longinus]

I‘m not sure what ”advanced technology definitely from the far future“ even means anymore in Discovery. They were sure the Red Angel suit must be from the future as well. Maybe they erred again when they analyzed the probe and it really wasn‘t future tech?

It seems pretty obvious to me that this story got some serious alterations as it went along. The things just do not hold up. The angel probably was originally meant to be from the future. There are a lot of things that just do not add up, which indicate direction switches. Though it is really bizarre that there are serious inconsistencies even between the two parts of one two-parter. The whole thing seems like each episode was written by a separate people who had only seen the previous ones but were forbidden from communicating with the people who wrote them.

 

[Alan Roi]

It seems pretty obvious to me that this story got some serious alterations as it went along. The things just do not hold up. The angel probably was originally meant to be from the future. There are a lot of things that just do not add up, which indicate direction switches. Though it is really bizarre that there are serious inconsistencies even between the two parts of one two-parter. The whole thing seems like each episode was written by a separate people who had only seen the previous ones but were forbidden from communicating with the people who wrote them.

I know I'm going to regret this, but what "serious inconsistencies" are you talking about?

 

[Longinus]

I know I'm going to regret this, but what "serious inconsistencies" are you talking about?

So how many time jumps can the Red Suit make? Is it one like in the part one or seven (or was it eight) like in the part two?

 

[Gonzo]

My money is on ”they will never continue with this storyline ever“. They might revisit Burnmum and/or Control, but I don‘t think they will ever reference the messy Red Angel storyline with the signals etc. again.

ETA: Would be kind of cool if there ever was a Trek novel attempting to reconcile every contradictory thing in season two. @Alan Roi, are you up to the challenge?

That is possible, however that probe may have nothing to do with Dr Burnham or Control as we know it.

It could be a consequence of Burnham/Discoverys actions in the future instead showing that the future is in flux in regards to certain aspects yet fixed in others.

Bit like with Pikes fate, it's not necessarily as absolute and fixed as it appears to be.

If the show runners are playing it straight then they have to deal with the probe on screen as it would cause a paradox/reset if they don't.

You guess is as good as mine for now.

 

[Michael]

Just an observation, but what‘s kind funny is how there seem to be two kinds of responses to people questioning the logic of something presented in Discovery: You are either (1.) called to not think about it too much, not scrutinize it, just go with the flow and just enjoy it, or you are (2.) pointed to a totally logical explanation that would have presented itself to you if only you imagined a couple of scenes or lines of dialog they just didn‘t include, because they wanted you to think for yourself.

 

[oberth]

Just an observation, but what‘s kind funny is how there seem to be two kinds of responses to people questioning the logic of something presented in Discovery: You are either (1.) called to not think about it too much, not scrutinize it, just go with the flow and just enjoy it, or you are (2.) pointed to a totally logical explanation that would have presented itself to you if only you imagine a couple of scenes or lines of dialog they just didn‘t include, because they wanted you to think for yourself.

how about a thought experiment?

chose any tos episode - really any - and go in with the same attitude you treat discovery with

we could have a new thread

[tosepisode chosen by @Michael] disected discostyle​

 

[Gonzo]

Just an observation, but what‘s kind funny is how there seem to be two kinds of responses to people questioning the logic of something presented in Discovery: You are either (1.) called to not think about it too much, not scrutinize it, just go with the flow and just enjoy it, or you are (2.) pointed to a totally logical explanation that would have presented itself to you if only you imagine a couple of scenes or lines of dialog they just didn‘t include, because they wanted you to think for yourself.

I tend to think of it as more along the line of us not having all the facts yet, especially in regards to the probe and Pikes fate.

If they chose to just ignore it that's ok though, I just find it a bit odd that they would go to such (unbelievable) lengths to wrap up some aspects yet not that one which is the biggest and most critical event of all.

It is suspicious hence why I am not convinced it's over.

 

[Michael]

how about a thought experiment?

chose any tos episode - really any - and go in with the same attitude you treat discovery with

we could have a new thread

[tosepisode chosen by @Michael] disected discostyle​

Well, I already had this kind of discussion in one of these threads here a couple of episodes ago. Basically my thinking comes down to: Just because something in previous Trek was bad or didn‘t make sense doesn‘t mean that‘s all I‘ll ever expect from new Trek. Of course I want new Trek to be better than old Trek. And that‘s not a bad or unreasonable thing to ask for.

 

[Alan Roi]

So how many time jumps can the Red Suit make? Is it one like in the part one or seven (or was it eight) like in the part two?

Well 1) they previously suggested in the same episode that the was the one who created the Red Angel bursts. 2) they say the crystal will ultimately burn out. No one says when that burnout will take place. All they do agree on is that if she takes Discovery to the future she won't be able to come back.

And I examine the show a lot.

 

[oberth]

Well, I already had this kind of discussion in one of these threads here a couple of episodes ago. Basically my thinking comes down to: Just because something in previous Trek was bad or didn‘t make sense doesn‘t mean that‘s all I‘ll ever expect from new Trek. Of course I want new Trek to be better than old Trek. And that‘s not a bad or unreasonable thing to ask for.

that's a bit of a cop out, at least in my book - it comes down to i don't want trek to be as it was, i want it to be as it should be according to what goes on in my head

btw, that's easy to acchieve - you just need to buy cbs

 

[Gonzo]

Well 1) they previously suggested in the same episode that the was the one who created the Red Angel bursts. 2) they say the crystal will ultimately burn out. No one says when that burnout will take place. All they do agree on is that if she takes Discovery to the future she won't be able to come back.

And I examine the show a lot.

There is nothing stopping her going and getting another crystal from the planet in the future either, depending on its current state.