Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Longinus]

I any case, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves in analysing what Pike should or would do with the information. He is understandably shocked at the moment, and has a crisis in his hands. He may do something once he has time to reflect on the matter. That we know that his attempts to avert the disaster do not succeed, doesn't mean that he doesn't even try it.

 

[Alan Roi]

We now know what an episode of Voyager written by Dr. Seuss would sound like.

Can we get a Star Trek series as reimagined by Dr. Suess now please!!

 

[GNDN18]

in The Menagerie, we hear that he saved ALL of the cadets

Mendez said, “He went in bringing out all those kids that were still alive.” I always took that to mean that not all of them made it out, probably because Pike was overcome by the delta rays.

 

[Yistaan]

Did you watch all of Wrath of Khan? Because I remember further commentary on that lesson, that kind of puts that 'lesson' into a larger perspective.

I saw it entirely multiple times, and I know Kirk messed up in not raising the shields. But strictly speaking, Kirk won out.

Remember, Kirk cheated again and stole the Enterprise in the next film, and Spock was revived.

I'm not saying people should cheat all the time (I always play by the rules in real life), but if a game is rigged (as a Kobayashi Maru is), it's natural to look at all options to think outside the box. And honestly unchangable futures are about as rigged as one gets (and goes against the Trek ideas that people should fight to choose their future, like Pike did in the Cage. Freedom and self-determination as Picard put it). At the very least, Pike should be telling a lot of people to the point Commodore Mendez would be like "Blast, it finally happened like he said" by the time of the Menagerie.

Remember, Picard jeopardized his entire victory by telling everyone of the future in All Good Things, guaranteeing the future timeline that saved humanity was removed.

 

[SJGardner]

What did Kirk say after he was told he "cheated" at the Kobayashi Maru? "I don't believe in a no win scenario."

That's probably Star Trek's most famous lesson.

Wasn't the entire point of TWOK that Kirk was wrong and had to learn the hardest way possible that some situations you can't just simply cheat your way out of?

 

[Yistaan]

Wasn't the entire point of TWOK that Kirk was wrong and had to learn the hardest way possible that some situations you can't just simply cheat your way out of?

And the next movie showed he cheated his way out of it again.

Look I don't agree with cheating. But to say the franchise as a whole punished Kirk irrevocably in Wrath of Khan is odd when Spock is up and about in no time.

You could add David into the mix, but he may have been killed anyway regardless of Kirk's involvement for his knowledge of Genesis, which the Klingons knew about through hacking by Kruge's girlfriend.

It also adds into the fact that nothing bad happened in 2 that was related to Kirk not believing in a no win scenario. The bad stuff happened because he didn't raise shields on the Reliant! To attribute all of that to "I don't believe in a no win scenario" is bad is a bit of a bait and switch.

In any case, I do agree that if something's a clear no win scenario, you have to fight your hardest to get out of it.

Common sense says that if there's a noncommunicative starfleet vessel, raise shields. Kirk didn't do it and lost.

Common sense says if you know of a bad future danger, say something about it. Should Pike do what Kirk did and go against common sense?

 

[Alan Roi]

In any case, I do agree that if something's a clear no win scenario, you have to fight your hardest to get out of it.

I believe that is a matter of choice. And we've seen plenty of Trek where the narrative suggests otherwise. I do not think Pike has to make the choice you are imposing on him. And I think we've seen enough of his character that from day one of his appearance on Discovery that agrees with my assessment to suggest not trying to cheat his way out of his fate is the choice he will make.

 

[BillJ]

In any case, I do agree that if something's a clear no win scenario, you have to fight your hardest to get out of it.

It is only cheating if you lose.

 

[GNDN18]

And the next movie showed he cheated his way out of it again.

Kirk lost his son; his son’s “triumph” was an unstable disaster. David died for nothing.

So much winning.

 

[Yistaan]

Kirk lost his son; his son’s “triumph” was an unstable disaster. David died for nothing.

So much winning.

I'll just repost what I already said. Kirk's mistake was not raising the shields on the Reliant.

I think even David himself would never blame his death on his father's "I don't believe in a no win scenario" mentality. I feel he would agree that his father erred (as Kirk admits in the Starfleet Academy game) by not raising the shields on the Reliant.

I'm honestly not sure how many times I have to repeat that Kirk's mistake of not raising shields has nothing to do with "I don't believe in a no win scenario" mentality.

Kirk had that mentality all his life. But as soon as he messes up on a mistake unrelated to that mentality, that entire mentality (that led him to a successful Starfleet career to Admiral) is suddenly bad?

You could add David into the mix, but he may have been killed anyway regardless of Kirk's involvement for his knowledge of Genesis, which the Klingons knew about through hacking by Kruge's girlfriend.

It also adds into the fact that nothing bad happened in 2 that was related to Kirk not believing in a no win scenario. The bad stuff happened because he didn't raise shields on the Reliant! To attribute all of that to "I don't believe in a no win scenario" is bad is a bit of a bait and switch.

In any case, I do agree that if something's a clear no win scenario, you have to fight your hardest to get out of it.

Common sense says that if there's a noncommunicative starfleet vessel, raise shields. Kirk didn't do it and lost.

Common sense says if you know of a bad future danger, say something about it. Should Pike do what Kirk did and go against common sense?

 

[BillJ]

Kirk lost his son; his son’s “triumph” was an unstable disaster. David died for nothing.

So much winning.

But ended up with a brand-new Enterprise and a brand-new Spock. David was likely dead whether Kirk showed up or not. Without stealing the Enterprise, him being in the position to get a new Spock and ship were unlikely.

So he ended up ahead in the game.

 

[SJGardner]

It's not simply about it being no-win scenario, which I think is actually a gross oversimplification of what the point of the Kobayashi Maru is. That could be better summed as "you can't always save everyone" and "no matter what you do, people are going to die because of your actions." Which is actually a lesson that many Starfleet officers don't seem to learn. Kirk didn't, and that cost him the life of Spock, and he had to sacrifice his career (at least as far as he knew) to bring him back. Burnham didn't either, and that's why she needed Nhan to pull the airlock's lever for her. It took Troi multiple tries and Riker's advice to finally realize it.

This exchange from Babylon 5 (Season 3, Episode 18, "Walkabout") came to my mind:
G'KAR: Well, he doesn't want to go.
GARIBALDI: Of course he doesn't. It's easy to fight when you got a lot of ships. The real crunch comes when you're down to almost nothing. Then you either play it safe and you probably lose it all, or you take a chance. After what we've been through with your people Sheridan was crazy to send our pilots to fight for you. They didn't want to get blown out of the sky and leave B5 defenseless, and they sure didn't want to die. But they did it because Sheridan told them to do it and because it was right.
G'KAR: This time it is possible he could be wrong.
GARIBALDI: Yeah, it's possible but you don't follow orders because you know it's gonna work. You do what you're told because your CO has the moral authority that says you may not come back, but the cause is just and fair and necessary. That's why Sheridan is out there and dammit, that's where that cruiser should be too. It's not Na'Kal's decision, G'Kar. He doesn't see the big picture. You do. So in my book and your book, that makes it your responsibility. Deal with it.

 

[Yistaan]

David was in danger the moment Kruge's girlfriend (I forget her name) learned about Genesis and Kruge decided to make Genesis and everyone who knew about it a target.

Honestly the whole awful chain started because Kirk for some reason felt invincible to not raise shields against the Reliant. But once that mistake was made, Kirk did the best he could under the extremely bad circumstances. If Kruge's girlfriend had never hacked into Genesis, Kruge wouldn't even have been there.

 

[GNDN18]

But ended up with a brand-new Enterprise and a brand-new Spock. David was likely dead whether Kirk showed up or not. Without stealing the Enterprise, him being in the position to get a new Spock and ship were unlikely.

So he ended up ahead in the game.

Well, when you put it that way, it was a bargain.

 

[Alan Roi]

David was in danger the moment Kruge's girlfriend (I forget her name) learned about Genesis and Kruge decided to make Genesis and everyone who knew about it a target.

Honestly the whole awful chain started because Kirk for some reason felt invincible to not raise shields against the Reliant. But once that mistake was made, Kirk did the best he could under the extremely bad circumstances. If Kruge's girlfriend had never hacked into Genesis, Kruge wouldn't even have been there.

And why did Kirk feel invincible, I wonder? Could it be that he's spent too many years patting himself on the back for how smart he thinks he is?

 

[Yistaan]

And why did Kirk feel invincible, I wonder? Could it be that he's spent too many years patting himself on the back for how smart he thinks he is?

Kirk should have remembered that striving to prevent a no win situation requires, well, actually striving for it (like raising shields). Doesn't mean that the fight to prevent no win situations itself is bad.

If a star tennis player got cocky playing tennis all these years and then lost, does it mean that his entire career playing tennis (and the drive to always win) was a waste of time? Of course not.

 

[BillJ]

Honestly the whole awful chain started because Kirk for some reason felt invincible to not raise shields against the Reliant.

It was supposed to show that he was rusty and not used to sitting in the center seat. So he makes a cadet mistake.

 

[Yistaan]

Yeah Kirk was getting rusty. Regardless, just because his principle of not believing in no-win was introduced in this movie, it seems that all his Genesis Trilogy mistakes were magically conflated with this principle despite him presumably having it during his entire successful TOS series.

 

[DaveyNY]

It was supposed to show that he was rusty and not used to sitting in the center seat. So he makes a cadet mistake.

Just like having Decker countermand his order about firing phasers at the asteroid.

 

[GNDN18]

It was a training cruise. “I might be a little stale…” Kirk let his guard down and people got hurt. In other words, he was human.

Baffle plates rupturing, genetically engineered supermen seeking vengeance. These inspection tours are rough.