Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[gblews]

Indeed. Though they almost didn't even come across as being Klingons at all, but some weird sort of high fantasy race. I mean, they were guardians of a mystic temple filled with magic crystals. Trek has taken many trips into the absurd (giant space amoebas, greek gods, etc), but I think this is the most outward use of straight-up fantasy tropes yet.

We never saw Pike interact with anyone on Boreth except Tyler's son, who acted like what I would think a "religious" cleric would, even a Klingon cleric. The only other Klingons we saw Pike come close to looked pretty fierce to me and quite capable of defending the time crystals.

I think you're erroneously projecting what you saw in Tyler Jr.'s demeanor onto the Klingon guards. In fact, I bet that one of the reasons Tyler Jr. could afford to be as benign as he was, was because of the fierceness of the guards. Tyler Jr. could leave the strong arm tactics to the them while presenting as a Klingon version of Mr. Rogers.

 

[Alan Roi]

DSC's Boreth has a very high fantasy feel to it. Cool visuals, but still .

Well, medieval monasteries do have a high fantasy feel to them. That's why the have often been the basis of high fantasy art and are used as locations in many a fantasy movie.

 

[Alan Roi]

That’s rationalization and not how they’re presented. Though it’d make more sense.

Religious people often interpret non-divine events as of divine providence and present them as such.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Guardian was a big deal because of the time travel aspect.

Which doesn't change the fact it is a hole in a wall that somehow lets you travel through time. It sends out ripples of time! I'm headcanonning the GOF as being powered by or even being made of time crystals.

The Orb of Time is not a natural mineral deposit; it’s a sophisticated piece of technology from another universe.

Are they? Maybe they're time crystals. The Prophets' non linear existence would seem to have something in common with the monks on Borath. Perhaps like the monks, the proto-Prophets originated on a world rich in time crystals? Perhaps one day the monks will ascend to a non-corporeal, non-linear existence.

The slingshot is the most perplexing one...but you do need a warp-capable civilization, with sturdy enough a ship, and some sophisticated math (also a way to recrystallize dilithium if you’d like to return to wherever).

Technobabble that sounds scientific at a glance.

In the literature the Reeves-Stevenses I think in the DS9 Millennium Trilogy came up with a reason it’s more complex than that too or more peoples would attempt/succeed at it.

That's nice.

 

[StarMan]

You know I was thinking these time crystals would give the TARDIS a run for it's money. You take one, and your future is time-locked. Amazing substance!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Religious people often interpret non-divine events as of divine providence and present them as such.

But enough about the Bajorans.

 

[Arpy]

It also apparently matters who is in the audience, because people fixated on certain things will see those things in outsized emphasis in whatever they are watching. So yes, for some people fixated on The Odyssey will see the Odyssey in a lot more things than people who are not.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. I think West Side Story is great as a retelling of Romeo and Juliet. But a story about disease caused by an imbalance of the earth wind water and fire in your body, regardless how masterful, remains idiotic.

 

[Arpy]

Religious people often interpret non-divine events as of divine providence and present them as such.

I’m talking about the idea of time crystals 1) at all, and 2) as natural mineral deposits.

 

[thribs]

Control is the Master from the '96 movie.

 

[gblews]

As for Pike's scene: Yeah, it was utterly effective. But also kinda' unnecessary. Unlike him meeting Vina a few episodes ago, this outing didn't add anything new.

In this "outing", we find out that Pike seals his own fate by choosing to take the time crystal. That alone is something we did not know before and it's pretty significant. We also find out from this outing, that Pike's devastating injuries occur as a result of a rescue attempt. We also find out that Boreth exists in a weird time void where time moves differently. We also find out that Tyler and L'Rell's son has grown to adulthood and is pretty well adjusted.

This all falls under the heading of new information, I believe. So, what did you mean when you said, "we didn't learn anything new (in this outing by Pike)"?

The problem is - it's more obvious it's the early Borg

As others have pointed out, if this does not turn out to be the origin of the Borg, I wonder how many will then say (among other things), "well, that was pretty anti-climactic", when the "climax" was something possibly created solely by their minds. .

Probably the dumbest idea possible in a franchise that was built on - wait for it - exploration. Seeking out stuff that's NOT made by us.

Discovery is NOT on a five year mission to seek out new life or to boldly go where no one has gone before. Any exploration she does will be incidental and not primary to it's mission.

 

[thribs]

Season 2: Time Crystal
Season 3: Soul Crystal
Season 4: Mind Crystal

Gotta get them all for the Gauntlet.

 

[Alan Roi]

I’m talking about the idea of time crystals 1) at all, and 2) as natural mineral deposits.

And I will respond with Clarke's Law.

 

[SolarisOne]

Control is the Master from the '96 movie.

Ugh. All of the other Masters (and Missy) were better.

 

[thribs]

Ugh. All of the other Masters (and Missy) were better.

Not a fan of Missy and the previous one. Too Joker like for me. Looking forward to hearing Eric Roberts as the Master again later on this year in Ravenous 4.

 

[Arpy]

Which doesn't change the fact it is a hole in a wall that somehow lets you travel through time. It sends out ripples of time!

It’s not the time travel overall that’s problematic (although it is) but how it’s achieved. Time crystals, again, are shit science and open up an astonishingly huge can of worms.

I'm headcanonning the GOF as being powered by or even being made of time crystals.

“That’s nice.”

Are they? Maybe they're time crystals.

And maybe Kirk was a repressed homosexual.

The Prophets' non linear existence would seem to have something in common with the monks on Borath. Perhaps like the monks, the proto-Prophets originated on a world rich in time crystals? Perhaps one day the monks will ascend to a non-corporeal, non-linear existence.

But the point of being non-linear is that they don’t, perhaps, one day, progress to become?

 

[Nerys Myk]

It’s not the time travel overall that’s problematic (although it is) but how it’s achieved. Time crystals, again, are shit science and open up an astonishingly huge can of worms.

What's the science behind the Guardian again?

And maybe Kirk was a repressed homosexual.

My time crystal theory is more plausible.

But the point of being non-linear is that they don’t, perhaps, one day, progress to become?

Who can say?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

We also find out from this outing, that Pike's devastating injuries occur as a result of a rescue attempt.

We've known that ever since "The Menagerie".

 

[Arpy]

And I will respond with Clarke's Law.

Yeah, and what if DSC is actually Hamlet except for everything that they actually say and do? You’re doing extra work to make what’s presented work — ironically, like the Reeves-Stevenses.

Look, I like the show a lot, but in this they dropped the ball, and I don’t understand the need to argue about it. The writers are interested in story, not science or consistency. The fan can enjoy the story on its own terms, but then to not admit it’s problematic is crazy.

 

[plynch]

Now as an adult -- well for some time now -- well, ok, since my twenties, I knew TOS wasn't too likely, science-wise. But it had a science-y veneer. And I wasn't that into science, but as a "smart kid" they talked smart talk on tv, so I loved it. They gave it the ol' college try. The writers/showrunners had come of age in the pulp era and were creating the show right after the 50s Bradbury/Sturgeon golden age. It was a form of science fiction, and I was reading Analog as a kid. The god-like beings are a step into fantasy, but there was usually a nod to evolution and psionic capabilities which were fact then.

I disliked when DS9 veered into pah wraiths and people shooting force-lightning out of their arms. That's at least aesthetically gettin into fantasy. I'm a sci-fi kid all growed up and simply don't like that. That is one beef about DSC, that it is future and techy and spaceships and all, but with, yes, the magic mushrooms, and time crystals, and now the castle of mordor or whatever, it feels like it's got a half a foot in fantasy. More than any Trek incarnation has since late DS9.

Yes, I know, I can hear the yeah-buts already, and yes, every series had its weirder eps and moments, but I'm just sayin' how DSC feels. Like this time suit that can also go anywhere, not be noticed, but sometimes it's crazy-noticeable, and it moved a church out of World War III. I can hear Roddenberry's or Justman's memos in my head, questioning . . . wait . . . how did . . . what now? So thanks, all for catayzing my thoughts on this, that DSC seems a little OK-er with being a bit more fantastical. I mean, TOS coulda called 'em SPACE CRYSTALS, or WARP CRYSTALS, but no, they went the extra mile and made a mineral-y sounding name for this nerdy 70s kid. Thanks, GR. I dig your vision. We reach, in other words!

For a whole lot of youse, DSC's being ok with being just a bit less sciency-feeling (Tilly's outbursts about science aside) and a bit more fantasy-esque is either ok, or a good thing. (Dare I say a God Thing? A little GR humor there.) ("Very little, ensign.") And it's not at all a deal breaker for me. Just not how I'd prefer it. I'd like my nonsense to look and sound more plausible, please! Y M M V and that's ok.

Ok, start telling me how wrong I am . . .

 

[SolarisOne]

Now as an adult -- well for some time now -- well, ok, since my twenties, I knew TOS wasn't too likely, science-wise. But it had a science-y veneer. And I wasn't that into science, but as a "smart kid" they talked smart talk on tv, so I loved it. They gave it the ol' college try. The writers/showrunners had come of age in the pulp era and were creating the show right after the 50s Bradbury/Sturgeon golden age. It was a form of science fiction, and I was reading Analog as a kid. The god-like beings are a step into fantasy, but there was usually a nod to evolution and psionic capabilities which were fact then.

I disliked when DS9 veered into pah wraiths and people shooting force-lightning out of their arms. That's at least aesthetically gettin into fantasy. I'm a sci-fi kid all growed up and simply don't like that. That is one beef about DSC, that it is future and techy and spaceships and all, but with, yes, the magic mushrooms, and time crystals, and now the castle of mordor or whatever, it feels like it's got a half a foot in fantasy. More than any Trek incarnation has since late DS9.

Yes, I know, I can hear the yeah-buts already, and yes, every series had its weirder eps and moments, but I'm just sayin' how DSC feels. Like this time suit that can also go anywhere, not be noticed, but sometimes it's crazy-noticeable, and it moved a church out of World War III. I can hear Roddenberry's or Justman's memos in my head, questioning . . . wait . . . how did . . . what now? So thanks, all for catayzing my thoughts on this, that DSC seems a little OK-er with being a bit more fantastical. I mean, TOS coulda called 'em SPACE CRYSTALS, or WARP CRYSTALS, but no, they went the extra mile and made a mineral-y sounding name for this nerdy 70s kid. Thanks, GR. I dig your vision. We reach, in other words!

For a whole lot of youse, DSC's being ok with being just a bit less sciency-feeling (Tilly's outbursts about science aside) and a bit more fantasy-esque is either ok, or a good thing. (Dare I say a God Thing? A little GR humor there.) ("Very little, ensign.") And it's not at all a deal breaker for me. Just not how I'd prefer it. I'd like my nonsense to look and sound more plausible, please! Y M M V and that's ok.

Ok, start telling me how wrong I am . . .