Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
The Pike stuff was wrenching. Very Johnny Got His Gun. Does Pike know Morse code?
Also, to use his knowledge, maybe he could...
Also, to use his knowledge, maybe he could...
make sure there are a ton of training drills on every ship he's ever one. So while he can't save himself, maybe that saves others, either when he's hurt or on other ships, as everyone gets the idea, hey, these drills are important, we should do a ton of 'em.
You've seen like one shot of it. Let's see the whole thing before we jump to conclusions.
:thinks about it for a second:
I forgot. We're Star Trek fans! Carry on!
Without having read the entirety of the thread beforehand:
Review:
This seasons biggest flaw continues to be it's overall arc. Like - I immensely enjoyed most of the singular elements of this episode. But everything suffers because they didn't add up to anything more complex than the last twenty minutes of a typical MARVEL movie.
Boreth, Pike's vision and the chair
Arguibly the emotional highlight of this episode. I really, really enjoyed this portrayal of the Klingons! From the D7, to the "untypical" role (I didn't have to listen to "honour" being uttered once!), to the general weirdness of the monastry - THIS is how an alien civilisation should be portrayed! That was well done.
As for Pike's scene: Yeah, it was utterly effective. But also kinda' unnecessary. Unlike him meeting Vina a few episodes ago, this outing didn't add anything new. The scene was handled well, of course they had to made Pike having to choose between his fate and the fate of the unvierse. But it was beautifully and effective for how restraint and subtle it was handles.
The biggest problem is - this is another story, just the best parts retold. I fear DIS will never be able to create a character arc as interesting with their constant ball-sto-the-walls save-all-life-in-the-universe/multiverse approach. Also, Pike already knowing off his fate 10 years in advance creates a multitude of problems. If I were him, I'd just quit Starfleet and build a farm. Having him "choose" his fate takes a little bit away from the sheer tragedy of his accident. The chair was utterly cool to see though.
CONTROLing the origins of the Borg
First of all - while it's utterly chliché and trope-y, having a bunch of characters fight against an A.I. controling the ship their on is a pretty cool concept. And a lot of it was also done pretty cool.
The problem is - it's more obvious it's the early Borg (already starting his quest to "merge" with important indiviuals, reviving the dead, trying to infect others with nanoprobes...) - which is just IMMENSELY a bad idea. Yeah, we get it, no matter how far and wide the universe - everything cool goes back to the humans.
Probably the dumbest idea possible in a franchise that was built on - wait for it - exploration. Seeking out stuff that's NOT made by us.
But the biggest problem is still: we know nothing about Control in the first place. Having Contol take over every Section 31 ship and the single survivor is SO predictable - the characters seem really, really dumb. Because either Control is capable of it - which it is - then this would have been the obvious danger. Or Control doesn't work this way and surprises the crew - then we should have known how Control works in the first place. Everybody dropped the idiot ball this week.
Stuff I liked
This show has an great standing, yet continues to shoot itself in the foot. All the little adventures are really well done, the journey is pretty great. But the destination is utterly stupid.
7/10 - because this episode had a lot of great individual elements
Review:
This seasons biggest flaw continues to be it's overall arc. Like - I immensely enjoyed most of the singular elements of this episode. But everything suffers because they didn't add up to anything more complex than the last twenty minutes of a typical MARVEL movie.
Boreth, Pike's vision and the chair
Arguibly the emotional highlight of this episode. I really, really enjoyed this portrayal of the Klingons! From the D7, to the "untypical" role (I didn't have to listen to "honour" being uttered once!), to the general weirdness of the monastry - THIS is how an alien civilisation should be portrayed! That was well done.
As for Pike's scene: Yeah, it was utterly effective. But also kinda' unnecessary. Unlike him meeting Vina a few episodes ago, this outing didn't add anything new. The scene was handled well, of course they had to made Pike having to choose between his fate and the fate of the unvierse. But it was beautifully and effective for how restraint and subtle it was handles.
The biggest problem is - this is another story, just the best parts retold. I fear DIS will never be able to create a character arc as interesting with their constant ball-sto-the-walls save-all-life-in-the-universe/multiverse approach. Also, Pike already knowing off his fate 10 years in advance creates a multitude of problems. If I were him, I'd just quit Starfleet and build a farm. Having him "choose" his fate takes a little bit away from the sheer tragedy of his accident. The chair was utterly cool to see though.
CONTROLing the origins of the Borg
First of all - while it's utterly chliché and trope-y, having a bunch of characters fight against an A.I. controling the ship their on is a pretty cool concept. And a lot of it was also done pretty cool.
The problem is - it's more obvious it's the early Borg (already starting his quest to "merge" with important indiviuals, reviving the dead, trying to infect others with nanoprobes...) - which is just IMMENSELY a bad idea. Yeah, we get it, no matter how far and wide the universe - everything cool goes back to the humans.
Probably the dumbest idea possible in a franchise that was built on - wait for it - exploration. Seeking out stuff that's NOT made by us.
But the biggest problem is still: we know nothing about Control in the first place. Having Contol take over every Section 31 ship and the single survivor is SO predictable - the characters seem really, really dumb. Because either Control is capable of it - which it is - then this would have been the obvious danger. Or Control doesn't work this way and surprises the crew - then we should have known how Control works in the first place. Everybody dropped the idiot ball this week.
Stuff I liked
- The D7 wass GLORIOUS! The Klingons on Boreth as well.
- Somehow I weirdly like people getting blown out into space. So yeah, well done
- The whole scene with the chair was done really well
- The Klingon monastry was just a random church set
I had a lot of TOS-flashbacks, where they went to Cowboy-cities, hounted houses and present-day street sets because they had these sets standing around. That's not a bad thing!
- Mole Nr. 5! - Lorca, Tyler/Voq, Leland, Airiam, Gant - STOP IT. Is a turncoat really the only way the writers can create some suspension?
- The Discovery is carrying the McGuffin to end the universe (the sphere data) around? Why don't they park her above Earth, protected by the fleet, and take her to every dangerous lone mission into enemy territory, instead of just taking another ship?
- Fucking time crystals - they are EVERYWHERE now. Why is anyoneeven surprised at time-travel anymore?
- In a same way, while I liked the "Keeper", I think having him be Tylers/LRell's baby was not that great an idea
- Also, all Starfleet admirals should be very aware of what the stakes are. And they are in direct command of Section 31 as seen earlier. And everybody knows Control is embedded in Section 31. Why the fuck do they continue to let them roam around, unsuperised?
This show has an great standing, yet continues to shoot itself in the foot. All the little adventures are really well done, the journey is pretty great. But the destination is utterly stupid.
7/10 - because this episode had a lot of great individual elements
A very meh episode overall. But I give it a higher then meh ranking because of the scene where Pike learns his fate. That scene was so well done.
The Burnham/Spock stuff was...there. But it pretty much confirms Control is the Borg in my opinion.
All the Klingon stuff aside from seeing an honest to god Klingon ship was not great. I hate this idea of the Klingons sitting on these time crystals that make you age rapidly. It’s just so dumb.
The scene in the galley was great and so was the scene in sickbay. Really hope Notaro comes back next year.
Wasn’t a huge fan of the Discoprise. So finally seeing the Discoprise bridge is underwhelming. It looks like a nice design, I just am not a fan of the visual retcon of the ship.
The Burnham/Spock stuff was...there. But it pretty much confirms Control is the Borg in my opinion.
All the Klingon stuff aside from seeing an honest to god Klingon ship was not great. I hate this idea of the Klingons sitting on these time crystals that make you age rapidly. It’s just so dumb.
The scene in the galley was great and so was the scene in sickbay. Really hope Notaro comes back next year.
Wasn’t a huge fan of the Discoprise. So finally seeing the Discoprise bridge is underwhelming. It looks like a nice design, I just am not a fan of the visual retcon of the ship.
I can see the 1960's chairs and tell they don't belong in the Discovery motif.
It did look cool. Though it must have gone through some massive climate change in the 100 year between this episode and "Rightful Heir."
Hahah, man, I forgot about that!
Again, my biggest issue with the Control subplot is it's literally a retread from just last episode. Control assimilates someone with nanoprobes, who then becomes Control personified. It then decides to stay on the down low and use its human disguise to try and trick people into doing its bidding. This culminates in an action scene which involves getting shot by phasers multiple times without getting killed. Honestly the mook this week seems weaker in combat than Leland was last week.
Also, unlike the stuff last week, there was no arc-related reason it had to happen. The bond-villain infodump wasn't needed. Nothing plot-relevant happened. It was just a diversion really - one which seemed to happen due to the need to have a Burnham-focused B plot to keep her as the character with the most lines. It only makes sense perhaps from a character-arc standpoint, as she is unsure of herself at the beginning of the episode, but resolute at the end.
Also, unlike the stuff last week, there was no arc-related reason it had to happen. The bond-villain infodump wasn't needed. Nothing plot-relevant happened. It was just a diversion really - one which seemed to happen due to the need to have a Burnham-focused B plot to keep her as the character with the most lines. It only makes sense perhaps from a character-arc standpoint, as she is unsure of herself at the beginning of the episode, but resolute at the end.
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This isn't Discovery. This is the Enterprise. They even have different uniforms.
This isn't Discovery. This is the Enterprise. They even have different uniforms.
And the Discovery style viewscreen.
Please let this not be the Borg origin story as some are speculating. It doesn't fit at all with the Borg we know in any way.
First of all if this was Borg origin, their home base would be in the Alpha quadrant instead of the Delta quadrant. Secondly the Borg are a fusion of humanoid and machine parts. It is reasonable to assume that humanoids used technology to enhance themselves at some point. Slowly improving the augmentations to the point where they were able to interface their minds with computers. Then they were able to develop a way to think together and then finally create a hive mind, which then grew into a singular consciousness that was powerful in itself and able to think as one. (Sort of like that episode Unity on Star Trek Voyager when Chakotay is healed by those Borg)
And then they keep growing and evolving and assimilating, etc etc. getting better and better as they assimilate other races and technology.
That is how I imagined the Borg developed.
Also, Borg do not wipe out sentient life, they assimilate it. They also don't 'reconstruct' living beings with nano technology. They merely infect them with it, but the nano tech can still be removed. In this show the nano particles seem to become every single cell in the body.
Anyway I think there are too many inconsistencies in this AI/Control story for it to turn out to be the Borg origin story.
First of all if this was Borg origin, their home base would be in the Alpha quadrant instead of the Delta quadrant. Secondly the Borg are a fusion of humanoid and machine parts. It is reasonable to assume that humanoids used technology to enhance themselves at some point. Slowly improving the augmentations to the point where they were able to interface their minds with computers. Then they were able to develop a way to think together and then finally create a hive mind, which then grew into a singular consciousness that was powerful in itself and able to think as one. (Sort of like that episode Unity on Star Trek Voyager when Chakotay is healed by those Borg)
And then they keep growing and evolving and assimilating, etc etc. getting better and better as they assimilate other races and technology.
That is how I imagined the Borg developed.
Also, Borg do not wipe out sentient life, they assimilate it. They also don't 'reconstruct' living beings with nano technology. They merely infect them with it, but the nano tech can still be removed. In this show the nano particles seem to become every single cell in the body.
Anyway I think there are too many inconsistencies in this AI/Control story for it to turn out to be the Borg origin story.
And the Discovery style viewscreen.
When someone accidentally adds too many zeros to the print option in the transparent aluminium factory, you have to get rid of them all somehow.
Love the Enterprise bridge redesign. Perfectly respects the original while doing the modern update we all knew was coming.
Count me in.
This one was not quite as good as last week, but still pretty good.
Loved the stuff on Boreth, it was cool to see a different side of the Klingons and to explore Boreth in a bit more detail. The time crystal stuff was pretty fun, I liked the tree growing in a few seconds.
Pike seeing his future and choosing to go forward with it a great scene. I did not expect to actually see his accident and the aftermath while he was on Disco, so that was a cool surprise. I liked the updated version of the chair, but whole melted skin look they gave him was kinda creepy.
Burham and Spock's story was pretty good, but I do agree with @eschaton that having another fight with a Control possessed person was a bit repetitive after last week.
When did we see the Enterprise Bridge?
Loved the stuff on Boreth, it was cool to see a different side of the Klingons and to explore Boreth in a bit more detail. The time crystal stuff was pretty fun, I liked the tree growing in a few seconds.
Pike seeing his future and choosing to go forward with it a great scene. I did not expect to actually see his accident and the aftermath while he was on Disco, so that was a cool surprise. I liked the updated version of the chair, but whole melted skin look they gave him was kinda creepy.
Burham and Spock's story was pretty good, but I do agree with @eschaton that having another fight with a Control possessed person was a bit repetitive after last week.
When did we see the Enterprise Bridge?
Also, I forgot to add, the Borg are in no way an artificial intelligence, but the definition of the term. They are just interconnected neural network of ''living brains' that are able to think as one consciousness There was never any mention of an AI controlling the Borg in any way.
I don't get how there are still people who think we're witnessing a Borg origin story here. Control would crush the Collective. And, in fact, it already has hundreds of years in the future. The only other mortal-tier entities I've seen being able to do that were the novel-exclusive Caeliar (and that's only because baseline Borg technology was simply a corruption of their own.)
Because these writers? All it takes is a couple lines of dialogue to turn Control into the Borg.
As one of the few people who gave last week's episode a 10, I wasn't quite sure how to rate this one, and eventually rated it a 6, mostly because of how disjointed and rushed it was. Pike's and Burnham/Spock's storylines were each good on their own, but they didn't quite worked well together, the jumps from one to the other always felt abrupt and ultimately they seemed to take time away from each other. The roles of both L'Rell and Reno also felt quite rushed despite their impact. I think this episode is one of those that would've benefited much, much more from a longer run time. It almost felt like we were watching a recap of an episode instead of a full one, it had some of everything (well, except for Tilly, for which I've subtracted one point. Not that it matters, as I gave it back for Reno and Linus).
I didn't really like the choice to make the Boreth monastery gothic, which, coupled with his attire, made Tenavik appear more like an elf than a Klingon. Damn, just a few hours ago I would've had laughed if someone had told me I'd write that sentence some day. And when the tree started growing, even the music became Harry Potter-like and for a moment I forgot it was not Hogwarts.
While Pike's vision might have fallen victim to the same thing that apparently ate half the episode, the quick pacing worked well in this case, and was one of the best parts of the episode for me. It conveyed a sense for me that instead of simply watching a recap of what will happen ten years later, we're seeing the nightmarish vision that Pike's experiencing himself. Even the incident itself had an eerie, unreal, dreamlike quality, as if we didn't see the what transpired but rather Future!Pike's memories of it and the emotions he feels regarding it. I felt the reason it ended so rapidly and why he ultimately wasn't even able to save the single cadet who couldn't get out is because his future self himself feels he's failed. He made the ultimate sacrifice ten years ago and is now (in 2267) beating himself up over a perception of not having done enough by far. And of course, his face continuing to melt as he was sitting in the chair was a perfect representation of his unspeakable pain and torment. All things being said, even if all the preceding is just me reading too much into it, I get the sense that if we see the incident happening in real time later, it won't necessary go the same way.
Control's behavior in this episode was further indication for me that it wasn't the Borg. It showed a great deal of foresight and cunning that is entirely unlike the way the Collective just brute forces itself through everything. As soon as they were planning to board the ship, I knew the entire thing was a trap, albeit I thought at first it was trying to lure the Discovery there instead of just Burnham. Of course, its plan would've worked either way.
Observations:
I didn't really like the choice to make the Boreth monastery gothic, which, coupled with his attire, made Tenavik appear more like an elf than a Klingon. Damn, just a few hours ago I would've had laughed if someone had told me I'd write that sentence some day. And when the tree started growing, even the music became Harry Potter-like and for a moment I forgot it was not Hogwarts.
While Pike's vision might have fallen victim to the same thing that apparently ate half the episode, the quick pacing worked well in this case, and was one of the best parts of the episode for me. It conveyed a sense for me that instead of simply watching a recap of what will happen ten years later, we're seeing the nightmarish vision that Pike's experiencing himself. Even the incident itself had an eerie, unreal, dreamlike quality, as if we didn't see the what transpired but rather Future!Pike's memories of it and the emotions he feels regarding it. I felt the reason it ended so rapidly and why he ultimately wasn't even able to save the single cadet who couldn't get out is because his future self himself feels he's failed. He made the ultimate sacrifice ten years ago and is now (in 2267) beating himself up over a perception of not having done enough by far. And of course, his face continuing to melt as he was sitting in the chair was a perfect representation of his unspeakable pain and torment. All things being said, even if all the preceding is just me reading too much into it, I get the sense that if we see the incident happening in real time later, it won't necessary go the same way.
Control's behavior in this episode was further indication for me that it wasn't the Borg. It showed a great deal of foresight and cunning that is entirely unlike the way the Collective just brute forces itself through everything. As soon as they were planning to board the ship, I knew the entire thing was a trap, albeit I thought at first it was trying to lure the Discovery there instead of just Burnham. Of course, its plan would've worked either way.
Observations:
- Again, no Tilly. I'd be raging much more over this if I weren't already concerned because of other shortcomings of this episode.
- Reno's subplot was great if painfully short. I loved her blunt honesty about her attempt to mend things between Paul and Hugh. Even though she tried to pass it off as a self-serving attempt to make Paul work at full capacity, the way she talked about her late wife made it obvious she cared much more for her crewmates than she let on. That's 0.5 point given back from the one I took away for no Tilly.
- The other 0.5 is for Linus. "I hatched ready." God, that line was gold.
- So, it's the third time out of four a red burst lead Discovery to something connected to time travel (the dark matter, Terralysium as an evidence for the RA's time travel and now the time crystals). Kaminar still doesn't fit the picture and I wonder why that is.
- No Tilly
- I have to admit I jumped with joy at seeing the Enterprise and her bridge in the promo for next week. I can't wait for it. I have high hopes for the next episode after how much this one let me down.
- And of course, No Tilly.
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