Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[Alan Roi]

Specifically the way they showed Georgiou at the end of Point of Light warming up to the baby contrary to her earlier words about the uselessness of babies.

Perhaps the "evilness" that Georgiou outwardly displays includes at least some posturing on her part because that is the persona she wants to project (for various reasons), but she is actually less evil than that persona, as they might have been hinting with how she seemed to be a little enamored with the baby.

Most importantly she did that when no one was looking and then pretended to be disgusted when Tyler spotted her. It was a very funny scene and like the first Captain Killy scene last year, suggested that displays of theatrical evil is what is expected in the MU. Just like Klingons in the prime universe play it over the top in public.

 

[fireproof78]

The Klingon from TOS were introduced as theatrically evil. They were brought back as revered heroes in DS9. Ducat went back and forth and then back and forth and maybe again. Watch G'Kar in Babylon 5 go from a mustache twirling villain in The Gathering to the most deeply revered character on the show by the time series comes to a close. Can Disco pull a G'Kar or Ducat with the Emperor? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm a bowl of Gagh half full kind of guy. Why don't we let them try?

Precisely. Let them try.

Also, I saw a great and interesting argument that TUC actually does a disservice to Kirk as a character as he is presented as completely irrational for distrusting the Klingons. Except, the Klingons have been demonstrated to be villainous in their presentation, conquering and enslaving worlds because "they are the stronger." Doesn't get more one dimensional than that, until TUC.

 

[lawman]

More of a curiosity as to where the line actually is

In terms of bad science going beyond the pale? "Spock's Brain." TNG "Genesis." VOY "Threshold." ST Into Darkness. Star Trek is basically a 2 (IMHO sometimes rising to a 3) on TV Tropes' facetiously named "Mohs Scale of SF Hardness," and that's a fine ballpark to play in, but problems arise when it drops down to a 1, and basically flaunts a brazenly anti-scientific sensibility.

We've already seen them adding depth to Georgiou, and I expect that will continue. Yes, there will be a conflict between the fans who want the traditional Star Trek experience and those looking for a new unexplored side of the Federation.

Once again you seem preoccupied with sorting fans into camps and pitting them against one another. FWIW I think the problem with MU!Georgiou in the first place was that she didn't add anything new or interesting to Trek, but rather detracted from it, in the vein of a mustache-twirling pulp-era villain... basically Ming the Merciless doubled down. I'm all for fleshing out characters, but it's better to start with one who was interesting in the first place, not a pure one-dimensional cliché. As @Jadeb insightfully observed,

I fear that the writers are too infatuated with the campy eeeeevilness to really let go of it.

That's what the writers wanted, and that's what they created... so if they want a different kind of character for S31, better to start with a fresh one. (Even Leland, for heaven's sake, seems deeper and more interesting by comparison.) I really don't see any signs of "depth" in her, at least not so far... and what's worse, given her origins, any signs she may show are not to be trusted, as they can convincingly be interpreted as ploys to disarm or confuse others.

The Klingon from TOS were introduced as theatrically evil. They were brought back as revered heroes in DS9.

I would dispute that. Kor, Koloth, and Kang all showed signs of depth and interesting, distinctive personalities in their first appearances. (Lots of other TOS Klingons were just one-note villains, yes, but not those three.) If anything, they were much more disappointingly "stereotypical" Klingons (albeit in the Berman-era style) when brought back on DS9.

Watch G'Kar in Babylon 5 go from a mustache twirling villain in The Gathering to the most deeply revered character on the show by the time series comes to a close.

G'Kar at the start was perceived by some other characters as a villain, but he was clearly much more than that... and yes, his development across five seasons was fascinating to watch. Of course, it was all written by J. Michael Straczynski, whose talent is head and shoulders above anyone working on DSC. (Which is why, IMHO, B5 was a better show than any iteration of Star Trek.)

Also, I saw a great and interesting argument that TUC actually does a disservice to Kirk as a character as he is presented as completely irrational for distrusting the Klingons. Except, the Klingons have been demonstrated to be villainous in their presentation, conquering and enslaving worlds because "they are the stronger." Doesn't get more one dimensional than that, until TUC.

I'd agree that that aspect of TUC did a disservice to Kirk, and it could only really be explained away by resentment over David's death. The Klingons as presented in TOS were not one-dimensional; on the contrary, they were sophisticated enough to be the basis for the fascinating examination of their culture found in John M. Ford's terrific Trek novel The Final Reflection. (Which epitomizes the direction I wish TNG had taken in further developing them, rather than the boringly stereotypical biker/samurai mashup we got... but that ship has long since sailed.)

 

[Jadeb]

Its also becoming clear that her theatrical evil was for the benefit of an audience, just as Lorca played his audience in the MU different than in prime universe.

You are more charitable to the writing than I am. There was enough ugliness in season one that I assume the writers delighted in it for its own sake, or thought it was part of their mandate to make the show more "adult." (Ironically making the show more juvenile.)

They can try to retrofit some depth on how they wrote Eeeeevil Georgiou, but this is the same show that gave us Lorca's mustache-twirling heel turn and ended a war by giving a terrorist a doomsday bomb. It's all the same sort of silly, Saturday afternoon serial stuff, dressed up with some gore.

 

[Jadeb]

Once again you seem preoccupied with sorting fans into camps and pitting them against one another. FWIW I think the problem with MU!Georgiou in the first place was that she didn't add anything new or interesting to Trek, but rather detracted from it, in the vein of a mustache-twirling pulp-era villain... basically Ming the Merciless doubled down.

Funny, you posted this just as I was typing my comment about Saturday afternoon serials. Great minds.

 

[Alan Roi]

In terms of bad science going beyond the pale? "Spock's Brain." TNG "Genesis." VOY "Threshold." ST Into Darkness. Star Trek is basically a 2 (IMHO sometimes rising to a 3) on TV Tropes' facetiously named "Mohs Scale of SF Hardness," and that's a fine ballpark to play in, but problems arise when it drops down to a 1, and basically flaunts a brazenly anti-scientific sensibility.



Once again you seem preoccupied with sorting fans into camps and pitting them against one another. FWIW I think the problem with MU!Georgiou in the first place was that she didn't add anything new or interesting to Trek, but rather detracted from it, in the vein of a mustache-twirling pulp-era villain... basically Ming the Merciless doubled down. I'm all for fleshing out characters, but it's better to start with one who was interesting in the first place, not a pure one-dimensional cliché. As @Jadeb insightfully observed, That's what the writers wanted, and that's what they created... so if they want a different kind of character for S31, better to start with a fresh one. (Even Leland, for heaven's sake, seems deeper and more interesting by comparison.) I really don't see any signs of "depth" in her, at least not so far... and what's worse, given her origins, any signs she may show are not to be trusted, as they can convincingly be interpreted as ploys to disarm or confuse others.


I would dispute that. Kor, Koloth, and Kang all showed signs of depth and interesting, distinctive personalities in their first appearances. (Lots of other TOS Klingons were just one-note villains, yes, but not those three.) If anything, they were much more disappointingly "stereotypical" Klingons (albeit in the Berman-era style) when brought back on DS9.


G'Kar at the start was perceived by some other characters as a villain, but he was clearly much more than that... and yes, his development across five seasons was fascinating to watch. Of course, it was all written by J. Michael Straczynski, whose talent is head and shoulders above anyone working on DSC. (Which is why, IMHO, B5 was a better show than any iteration of Star Trek.)

Its funny how most people who want to contradict what I observe feel the need to spread on a thick layer of hyperbole over their argument, as though it somehow makes it superior. My recommendation is that if one wants to present an argument, present an argument. All the exaggerations just undercut everything they are trying to champion..

 

[Noname Given]

The Klingon from TOS were introduced as theatrically evil.

^^^
If you say that, I don't think you've watched an uncut version of TOS S1 - "Errand Of mercy". Kor wasn't presented as 'theatrically evil' IMO. He was a soldier of the Empire doing his duty as directed. They gave him abiout the same level of depth in the end that the Romulan Bird of Prey Commander got in TOS S1 - "Balance Of Terror".

 

[Alan Roi]

Eeeeevil

See what I mean. It kind of undermines a complaint about a show or character being theatrical if one can't help being over the top theatricl oneself. Its like a red delicious apple complaining that the next one on the rack isn't realistically red.

 

[Alan Roi]

^^^
If you say that, I don't think you've watched an uncut version of TOS S1 - "Errand Of mercy". Kor wasn't presented as 'theatrically evil' IMO. He was a soldier of the Empire doing his duty as directed. They gave him abiout the same level of depth in the end that the Romulan Bird of Prey Commander got in TOS S1 - "Balance Of Terror".

And Colicos hammed it up to match Shatner. And I'm saying this as a fan of the Star Trek series I watched first, as I'm not eight years old anymore.

 

[lawman]

Its funny how most people who want to contradict what I observe feel the need to spread on a thick layer of hyperbole over their argument, as though it somehow makes it superior. My recommendation is that if one wants to present an argument, present an argument. All the exaggerations just undercut everything they are trying to champion..

Such as?...

 

[Jadeb]

See what I mean. It kind of undermines a complaint about a show or character being theatrical if one can't help being over the top theatricl oneself. Its like a red delicious apple complaining that the next one on the rack isn't realistically red.

If they’re going to play her as a one-note villain, there’s no crime in saying what that note is.

 

[fireproof78]

If they’re going to play her as a one-note villain, there’s no crime in saying what that note is.

The difference being that I don't think she is being played as such, any more than I think she is being portrayed as sympathetic or heroic.

 

[Succubint]

There are some scenes from last season in which I saw more than just the 'Cannibal Space Hitler' some are insisting that's all MU Georgiou is. She appears to have a maternal love for MU Michael and a true sense of hurt at her betrayal. Her attachment didn't seem as self-serving or perverse as Lorca's. She honored her agreement with Michael after they executed their final plan. And when she thought her reign as over, she offered to hold off the attackers and die in battle in order to help Michael have time to escape.

Obviously, one can argue that it's only because she felt something for Michael and that she shows no concern or compassion for anyone else. That's fair. But still, can you imagine MU Lorca or MU Stamets being that remotely selfless even for a nano second if it came down to their lives or someone else's?

I also think that she's leaning into the 'evil' signaling - the apple, the hissing and so forth because she knows that's how this Michael perceives her. It's like she's a kid acting out to a scolding parent.

While I don't think the Emperor can ever truly atone for the despicable acts she's already committed, I do think there's potential there for a bit of growth and nuance, now that she's in a different environment and has less license to indulge every whim that's coming from her Id. She now has someone who can call her out on her shittier behavior.

Still, it remains to be seen if she can redeem herself in some small way to the point where Michael will change her mind about her. Which, lets be honest, is probably the only thing she would care about at this stage.

Even if she never redeems herself in the true sense of the word, I do think MU Georgiou would be an interesting character to watch over time. I would like to see what would be possible if she was a regular on a Section 31 show. If nothing else, she'd be entertaining. Michelle Yeoh seems to be having the time of her life playing her.

 

[lawman]

Perhaps that's part of my frustration with Georgiou... I honestly don't think Michelle Yeoh has done a good job playing her. (Either version of her!) She's been quite good in other roles (most recently Crazy Rich Asians), but her acting in DSC just hasn't felt convincing to me.

 

[Longinus]

Perhaps that's part of my frustration with Georgiou... I honestly don't think Michelle Yeoh has done a good job playing her. (Either version of her!) She's been quite good in other roles (most recently Crazy Rich Asians), but her acting in DSC just hasn't felt convincing to me.

I really liked the real Georgiou, and I think Yeoh instantly sold her as a great Starfleet captain. I would have loved a series with her in the big seat. But the Mirror version is just such a campy cliché.

 

[Jadeb]

Yeoh was way more intimidating in CRA than she's been in Discovery. But in fairness to her, the scripts have called for her to serve up ham, and she has.

 

[Longinus]

Yeoh was way more intimidating in CRA than she's been in Discovery. But in fairness to her, the scripts have called for her to serve up ham, and she has.

Yeah, it certainly is a writing issue.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

I guess it's all up to tastes but I really liked Georgiou as a Starfleet captain. I felt like I had already missed an entire series that built her up based on her performance. And, surprisingly, I've found myself completely warmed up to Mu Georgiou into the second season because I love the camp. She brings a little bit of Gotham into DSC and that's something I never thought I needed (I mean, I still don't need it) but it's been surprisingly fun and I'd like to see where it goes. Throw on the sheer enjoyment she has playing the role and I'm sold as a fan.

Is it problematic that I'm enjoying Space-Hitler? Maybe? I guess? I dunno, I feel like it should but it really doesn't. I mean, I wouldn't even really mind if they retconned her somehow to justify it because she's just fun. I'm sure it would enrage people if they randomly were like, 'oh it turns out she wasn't the one that did the genocide, but took credit for it so she could rule because she's a badass but not a monster and she only pretended to eat Kelpiens to fuck with people!' but at least it might make me feel better about it, lol. Maybe shift her character into something more akin to Loki in the MCU? I mean, I'm sure he's killed tons of people. Actually, they already seem to be doing that.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess it's all up to tastes but I really liked Georgiou as a Starfleet captain. I felt like I had already missed an entire series that built her up based on her performance. And, surprisingly, I've found myself completely warmed up to Mu Georgiou into the second season because I love the camp. She brings a little bit of Gotham into DSC and that's something I never thought I needed (I mean, I still don't need it) but it's been surprisingly fun and I'd like to see where it goes. Throw on the sheer enjoyment she has playing the role and I'm sold as a fan.

This is definitely a matter of tastes. I have enjoyed Yeoh's performance. I completely agree that I feel like we missed out of her leading a show as Prime Georgiou and would welcome that in some form.

Is it problematic that I'm enjoying Space-Hitler? Maybe? I guess? I dunno, I feel like it should but it really doesn't. I mean, I wouldn't even really mind if they retconned her somehow to justify it because she's just fun. I'm sure it would enrage people if they randomly were like, 'oh it turns out she wasn't the one that did the genocide, but took credit for it so she could rule because she's a badass but not a monster and she only pretended to eat Kelpiens to fuck with people!' but at least it might make me feel better about it, lol. Maybe shift her character into something more akin to Loki in the MCU? I mean, I'm sure he's killed tons of people. Actually, they already seem to be doing that.

Another great example of an irredeemable villain who somehow turned sympathetic. Loki started out as pure villain. Are audiences more accepting of him now?

 

[Alan Roi]

If they’re going to play her as a one-note villain, there’s no crime in saying what that note is.

Except there not, and all I can see from the namecalling is that some people feel threated by this for some reason. This isn't, however, the first time I've encountered someone who explicitely did not want a character developed in this show. Apparently some people are unhappy that Sarek has been further developed as well. I find it in intriguing that there are people who react this way, as though they don't ever want their impressions of particular characters to be challenged.