• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

Hit it!


  • Total voters
    235
He certainly suggests that Picard may not be redeemable under those qualifications.

But to be fair, no one who is converted into a Borg has control over their actions from that point forward.

How much it eats away at your after you've been de-Borgified would be a good indicator of whether you can be redeemed. Those memories could put you in the loony bin or make you a psycho killer. If you were good beforehand, you could probably get past it eventually, but unlikely to forget.
 
But to be fair, no one who is converted into a Borg has control over their actions from that point forward.

Sure, but what I was pointing out was that the Emperor was every bit a product of her society as Seven of Nine was of her borg integration. Both were taught the insignificance of morality in what they went about all their lives before being ripped from said lives. Both committed "cannibalism" without concern whether directed to or not. Yet one is considered reprogrammable and there for capable of being redeemed, and the other has a scarlet letter pinned to her chest for eternity, dubbed automatically and irrevocably irredeemable. Odd morality being presented here, is just what I am pointing out.
 
Last edited:
Sure, but what I was pointing out was that the Emperor was every bit a product of her society as Seven of Nine was of her borg integration. Both were taught the insignificance of morality in what they went about all their lives before being ripped from said lives. Both committed cannibalism without concern whether directed to or not. Yet one is considered reprogrammable and there for capable of being redeemed, and the other has a scarlet letter pinned to their chest for eternity. Odd morality being presented here, is just what I am pointing out.
Yeah with the both of them its very much a case of the environment they were brought up in and are a product of.

We know just how cut throat the MU is being very much a survival of the fittest type of environment and the Borg don't even give you a choice in the matter.

Both are capable of change when given the opportunity, although Georgiou will never become her PU version instead she will remain in the shadows and she seems quite happy as a member of S31.

Georgiou getting her own series means there is no chance of her taking over as Captain of the Discovery either.

I would love to see an episode showing us how the MU dealt with the Borg.
 
Sure, but what I was pointing out was that the Emperor was every bit a product of her society as Seven of Nine was of her borg integration. Both were taught the insignificance of morality in what they went about all their lives before being ripped from said lives. Both committed "cannibalism" without concern whether directed to or not. Yet one is considered reprogrammable and there for capable of being redeemed, and the other has a scarlet letter pinned to her chest for eternity, dubbed automatically and irrevocably irredeemable. Odd morality being presented here, is just what I am pointing out.

Sounds almost like the Nature vs Nurture debate from Orphan Black. Which one is stronger, programming or upbringing?
 
Sounds almost like the Nature vs Nurture debate from Orphan Black. Which one is stronger, programming or upbringing?
That's exactly what it is, in this case nurture (environment) was the decider but in a different environment we will see changes.
 
The end of "Return of the Jedi" must be very interesting for you.

Not really. It was a designed feel good moment to end a set of movies. None of it brings back all the people Vader butchered, including children.

I'm sorry. Hitler and Stalin were products of the society they grew up in, and I don't see them as being redeemable.
 
See, one of the key differences to me between the moral framework in Star Wars and Star Trek is good and evil exist as real, absolute things in Star Wars. People can be good, or bad. People can instantaneously flip from being a good person to a bad one due to just one bad action - provided it's bad enough. Similarly, people can find "grace" (like Vader) after a life of wickedness with just one act.

In contrast, the moral framework of the Trekverse to a certain extent relativist. Even where it's not, it's based upon the actions that someone takes, not what is in their heart.

Considering the absence of good and evil as meaning anything other than a humanist framework, who would even grant redemption? Basically, the character themselves. That's what we see with Damar in DS9, who as I noted got the best redemption arc in all of Star Trek. He was a man who was disgusted in what he had become, and ultimately chose a new and more difficult path not because he was condemned for it, but because he couldn't stand to look in the mirror at himself. He never found true inner peace, even at the end, but he made an effort, which allowed us to have more conflicted feelings about him as a character than watching someone like Weyoun get casually shanked by Garak.

I simply don't see how a redemption arc for MU Georgiou will work, because she's safely away from the MU and never has to see the ramifications of her own past actions. More likely she'll just "turn over a new leaf" and try and rationalize that all that stuff was in the past, in a different universe, and has no bearing on who she is today. Which is a pretty weak narrative.
 
Not really. It was a designed feel good moment to end a set of movies. None of it brings back all the people Vader butchered, including children.

I'm sorry. Hitler and Stalin were products of the society they grew up in, and I don't see them as being redeemable.

Some people really are just evil.
Dr. Hibbert: Well, only one in two million people has what we call the "evil gene". Hitler had it, Walt Disney had it, and... Freddy Quimby has it.
 
I simply don't see how a redemption arc for MU Georgiou will work, because she's safely away from the MU and never has to see the ramifications of her own past actions. More likely she'll just "turn over a new leaf" and try and rationalize that all that stuff was in the past, in a different universe, and has no bearing on who she is today. Which is a pretty weak narrative.
I suppose it is a weak narrative, but it is one that fascinates me nonetheless.

And, it's not like she is away from all of the ramifications of her choices, so there is a possibility of some sort of redemption arc.

Given the humanistic framework I find it very difficult to accept this categorical rejection of any redemption arc for Georgiou. The point of narrative is to demonstrate that change is possible, and Star Trek is about humanity improving beyond the base nature. So, here we have a perfect opportunity for the "nature vs. nurture" debate within Star Trek and it is rejected out of hand because this character is "too evil."

How very optimistic...
 
Not really. It was a designed feel good moment to end a set of movies. None of it brings back all the people Vader butchered, including children.

I'm sorry. Hitler and Stalin were products of the society they grew up in, and I don't see them as being redeemable.

No one asked you about Hitler and Stalin. Not sure why you felt the need to bring them into the conversation.
 
No one asked you about Hitler and Stalin. Not sure why you felt the need to bring them into the conversation.

As real world examples. Sometimes (most of the time), TV/movies feed us bullshit and it is good to remain tethered to the real world.
 
I really like what they're doing with Georgiou, here, especially showing some positive sides to her, an "evil" character - something that most other depictions of the MU didn't do. There's a lot of potential, here. It's very Trek to me. I love it.
 
I suppose it is a weak narrative, but it is one that fascinates me nonetheless.

And, it's not like she is away from all of the ramifications of her choices, so there is a possibility of some sort of redemption arc.

Given the humanistic framework I find it very difficult to accept this categorical rejection of any redemption arc for Georgiou. The point of narrative is to demonstrate that change is possible, and Star Trek is about humanity improving beyond the base nature. So, here we have a perfect opportunity for the "nature vs. nurture" debate within Star Trek and it is rejected out of hand because this character is "too evil."

How very optimistic...

It does seem to me that the people who most paint the Federation as a Utopia and how important it is to show that humanity can improve are the ones who most fervently claim that people who have done wrong in their pasts can never become better human beings. I'm at a loss to see how they can manage that contradiction in their heads other than through serious compartmentalization.
 
Sometimes (all of the time), TV/movies feed us bullshit
Fixed that for you.
It does seem to me that the people who most paint the Federation as a Utopia and how important it is to show that humanity can improve are the ones who most fervently claim that people who have done wrong in their pasts can never become better human beings. I'm at a loss to see how they can manage that contradiction in their heads other than through serious compartmentalization.
This is why I am insanely curious to this matter, and apologize to all if I appear to be harping or beating a dead horse. I am genuinely curious as to where the line is for redemption in terms of fictional narrative. Specifically, it is highly interesting set against the backdrop of current society.
 
As real world examples. Sometimes (most of the time), TV/movies feed us bullshit and it is good to remain tethered to the real world.

Ironically, I was once hired to write an interactive novel about being sent back in time to prevent Hitler from becoming the Furher through acts of kindness on his behalf at various stages in his life. It was an interesting and challenging assignment, I can tell you.
 
This is why I am insanely curious to this matter, and apologize to all if I appear to be harping or beating a dead horse. I am genuinely curious as to where the line is for redemption in terms of fictional narrative. Specifically, it is highly interesting set against the backdrop of current society.

I think it is one thing to allow a person to go on living their lives after doing something horrific (we did in quite a bit here in the US with Operation Paperclip) and trying to turn them into some kind of person who is going to do heroic deeds.

We have to be careful in how we present people, especially in the age of "there are good people on both sides", when one side is Nazis.
 
I think it is one thing to allow a person to go on living their lives after doing something horrific (we did in quite a bit here in the US with Operation Paperclip) and trying to turn them into some kind of person who is going to do heroic deeds.

We have to be careful in how we present people, especially in the age of "there are good people on both sides", when one side is Nazis.
Can a bad person become a good person is a legitimate narrative question though. Thus far, I have not seen Georgiou in a heroic light...:shrug:
 
I think it is one thing to allow a person to go on living their lives after doing something horrific (we did in quite a bit here in the US with Operation Paperclip) and trying to turn them into some kind of person who is going to do heroic deeds.

We have to be careful in how we present people, especially in the age of "there are good people on both sides", when one side is Nazis.

What's a heroic deed though? Many soldiers have committed horrible deeds during war time, yet are lauded for the saving of lives that they have done, the winners getting to write history as we all know. And do we label everyone who committed atrocities in the pre-Nazi era (and everyone did everywhere), Nazis? No we don't.
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top