Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"

[CorporalClegg]

But I don't buy that this was the plan all along.

Me neither.

I have no doubt it was done solely to save face.

 

[DaveyNY]

Hmmnnn....
So much to take in, a bit overwhelming.
I'm going with a 5 after the first viewing...

It'll probably go up with each future viewing as I am able to ingest what I've seen more clearly.

There's nothing in this episode I don't like, it's just very convoluted in my head at the moment.

I'm quoting myself here because I've watched it a second time and after reading other folks thoughts and adding them to my own insight of the episode, I've decided to up my rating to an 8.


(oh crap, I didn't realize till just now that I couldn't edit my rating with this poll)

 

[Gov Kodos]

Me neither.

I have no doubt it was done solely to save face.

They wanted a scene to express true love. If they'd just added one of them saying 'to blave' to the tear thing it would be true love or a poker game.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Prime Lorca will show up at the next dinner Georgiou has with Burnham.
Burnham: This is odd tasting beef.
Georgiou: It's Prime Lorca Goulash.
Burnham: ?
Georgiou: What, you don't eat the Kelpians here.

Human meat tastes like pork, not beef.

Otherwise, carry on.

 

[Pindar]

My least favourite episode so far. 7/10 for me and that includes 2 points for bringing back Culber.

I felt like the idea for the episode was better than the episode turned out to be.

I hope we don't see May again (I expect we will) and the loss Tilly felt at their separation made no sense given her reaction to May up to that point.

I wouldn't mind a little less monologuing from Burnham too.

I love Discovery but I have no love for that episode.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I felt like the idea for the episode was better than the episode turned out to be.

I think that's been the case all season. The stories have been very good, but the storytelling -- the presentation and execution of the story as a TV show -- has been lacking.

 

[DaveyNY]

My least favorite episode so far. 7/10 for me and that includes 2 points for bringing back Culber.

I felt like the idea for the episode was better than the episode turned out to be.

I hope we don't see May again (I expect we will) and the loss Tilly felt at their separation made no sense given her reaction to May up to that point.

I wouldn't mind a little less monologuing from Burnham too.

I love Discovery but I have no love for that episode.

Tilly was crying and leaning into Michael's arms at the end due to the complete and overwhelming emotions from the whole ordeal.
Not specifically because of May being gone.

(which I think, is the first time Star Trek has ever dealt with PTSD on such an emotionally personal level)

At least that is what I got out of that scene.

 

[cultcross]

Tilly was crying and leaning into Michael's arms at the end due to the complete and overwhelming emotions from the whole ordeal.
Not specifically because of May being gone

Possibly, but she does tell May that she "feels the same way" when May talks about how much she means to her. It makes sense for May, but Tilly only knew she wasn't an hallucination for about five minutes before Stamets pulled the blob out of her.

 

[Amaris]

Possibly, but she does tell May that she "feels the same way" when May talks about how much she means to her. It makes sense for May, but Tilly only knew she wasn't an hallucination for about five minutes before Stamets pulled the blob out of her.

Maybe Tilly's like me and becomes emotionally attached to people quickly. In this case, it would seem to be much easier for Tilly to see both her friend May and the spore person in the same body, and that probably helps it along.

 

[Pindar]

Maybe Tilly's like me and becomes emotionally attached to people quickly. In this case, it would seem to be much easier for Tilly to see both her friend May and the spore person in the same body, and that probably helps it along.

Tilly was hostile to May and rightly so until this episode. Then quite suddenly May is her best friend who giving up her link to is deeply upsetting for her.

I can guess I can blame the mushrooms.

It's also annoying to me that having access to Tilly's memories May should have known explaining what was happening and asking for help would have been more likely to get her what she wanted than kidnapping a Starfleet Officer.

I don't really understand why the newtwork rebuilt Culber just to try and eat him after bringing him back.

 

[SJGardner]

Tilly was crying and leaning into Michael's arms at the end due to the complete and overwhelming emotions from the whole ordeal.
Not specifically because of May being gone.

(which I think, is the first time Star Trek has ever dealt with PTSD on such an emotionally personal level)

At least that is what I got out of that scene.

That's how I took it as well; especially as the last three episodes apparently happened in a relatively short timeframe. She probably didn't have any time to process anything that has happened yet, especially with this episode's emotional roller coaster culminating in Hugh's resurrection added to the mix, so I saw her tears as cathartic. Then again, it was all subtext, possibly unintended, and I admit it could've been presented in a much clearer way. At least she didn't have any lines in the last scene with Burnham as far as I remember, so she doesn't outright admit she's crying over May, even if their goodbye gives off that impression.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

This show is quantifiable bananas. The gayest Trek yet, too! I love every bit of it.

Honestly I'm surprised nobody here burst any blood vessels over the com badge. I had to rewind the episode to see that again! Maybe this means that the haters have finally stopped watching Discovery just to complain about it? Nah, not likely.

Some thoughts...

I have to believe the writers know that Section 31 isn't supposed to be this visible, and that instead they're building up to something, perhaps something so terrible, that forces the organization to go underground and erase all record of their existence .

their existence would help explain events like the Hansen mission and how the Federation knew of certain species years or even decades before Starfleet would.

Wouldn't surprise me if a major part of the new S31 show is following Leland and his crew helping out but no one ever realising it, which would fit in well with what we saw of Sloan in DS9, playing by the rules is all well and good as long as your opponents do the same

If Section 31 had shadowed Kirk's five- year mission, then maybe a lot of pointless deaths could have been averted.

This is exactly what I want to see from the S31 show. Maybe not every episode, but lots of juicy pokes at canon and showing ways that the organization both caused and/or cleaned up after many of the wildest calamities Kirk and company stumbled across. Something like Person of Interest meets Quantum Leap but with Bad Guys™.

The only aspect I do find a little overdone at times is the monologue overkill by Burnham as we got quite a lot in this episode, don't get me wrong it has always been an aspect of Star Trek

Burnham's monologue's, well Kirk used to monologue with his Captain's logs so what's the difference?

It hasn't bothered me for the most part but the ending speech in this episode was particularly egregious; putting a rather large bow on things to the point that it maybe feels a little overblown? The introductory speeches are nice though.

It would be really terrifying if they actually had planned a resurrection story this stupid from the get go

I don't buy that this was the plan all along.

GLAAD Comments on 'Star Trek: Discovery'Gay Character "Death"

By Ryan Britt on January 13, 2018

On Thursday, GLAAD issued a statement in support of the latest Discovery storylines, including the death of Culber. In a public statement, GLAAD spokesperson Nick Adams said: “GLAAD is mourning … the death of a beloved groundbreaking character…but death is not always final in the Star Trek universe, and we know the producers plan to continue exploring and telling Stamets and Culber’s epic love story.”

https://www.inverse.com/article/40188-star-trek

She turned out to be evil in the last season already.

No, she eventually realized she was wrong and backed down.

Too little, too late. She approved an genocide.

This is why we continue to get stories (in all media, not just Trek) about groups like Section 31 - because people just can't agree on what is a point-of-no-return or event horizon for what it means to be truly evil.

Maybe they should really consider accept being wives and perhaps look up the etymology/meaning of husbandry for instance to understand why, IMHO. Wife also has an eymology/meanings as well if they are looking to understand the words they are using.

Spouses that identify as male are husbands. Spouses that identify as female are wives. Period (unless of course they refer to each other as partners, etc). Don't dig this hole too deep.

The real reason for all these "But why didn't they mention that before?" queries is that "well, they hadn't invented that yet." Which is, honestly, just the nature of the beast.

bUt sTaR TrEk hAs tO MaKe sEnSe aNd bE CoNsIsTeNt oR It sUcKs aNd i hAtE It

But don't ask me about the Nexus. I've been trying to work that one out for 25 years.

bUt dIsCoVeRy hAs tHe wOrSt sCiEnCe iN AlL Of tReK

I still feel that Tilly's transition from May's hostage to May's bestie happened a little quickly, but I'll see if my opinion of that changes when I rewatch the episode.

I tend to think it's because of Tilly's best qualities as a TOS human and as a Starfleet officer; she only flips after May tells her that there's a problem. She's still mad as hell, and understandably so, but her quest for knowledge can't let her completely deny the request. There's also the coercion aspect, but whatever When she finally understands the full situation, it's grounds for forgiveness. The journey makes perfect sense to me; any issues with the pacing of it can be firmly set in it taking place in a single episode.

As I recall, one of the points of TOS was that humanity has survived and progressed despite being a half-savage child race with a long way to go.

"We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today."

there's a long way from that to "officially sanctioned genocide squad".

I want to point out that the genocidal Section 31 we saw during the Deep Space Nine era may not (for various possible reasons) have all the same tendencies and characteristics as the Section 31 we will see during the Discovery era.

Producers are aware of the discrepancy with 24th century Section 31 and may even have a plan to show how Section 31 goes underground:

In other words, LET THE STORY FINISH before picking nits. Again, this is serialized television WITH a spinoff in the works. What we are seeing is not everything we are meant to see. Yet.

 

[Amaris]

Tilly was hostile to May and rightly so until this episode. Then quite suddenly May is her best friend who giving up her link to is deeply upsetting for her.

I can guess I can blame the mushrooms.

Well, there's kind of a reason I said that maybe Tilly was more like me, because that's how I am. I can make strong, fast, and deep connections with people.

It's also annoying to me that having access to Tilly's memories May should have known explaining what was happening and asking for help would have been more likely to get her what she wanted than kidnapping a Starfleet Officer.

I don't really understand why the newtwork rebuilt Culber just to try and eat him after bringing him back.

I believe that, while the Mycelial network is a large, sentient organism, it gets its sentience from all of the individual organisms. It would be like recognizing the earth is alive, and sentient, but then wondering why one of the natives you're trying to communicate with has run away from you screaming.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Tilly was hostile to May and rightly so until this episode. Then quite suddenly May is her best friend who giving up her link to is deeply upsetting for her.

I think she was hostile towards the idea that she was seeing hallucinations, and what "seeing things" means to her sanity and thus her career. I felt Tilly was at first frustrated that she thought she was loosing her sanity and took that frustration out on the hallucination.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

So, like Sliders only the sliders are small burgers with ganglia meat.

Nah. The ganglia are sauteed in butter and added on top of the Kelpburger, like onions.

 

[eschaton]

That's how I took it as well; especially as the last three episodes apparently happened in a relatively short timeframe. She probably didn't have any time to process anything that has happened yet, especially with this episode's emotional roller coaster culminating in Hugh's resurrection added to the mix, so I saw her tears as cathartic. Then again, it was all subtext, possibly unintended, and I admit it could've been presented in a much clearer way. At least she didn't have any lines in the last scene with Burnham as far as I remember, so she doesn't outright admit she's crying over May, even if their goodbye gives off that impression.

Honestly to me that line read as some weird hasty addition - maybe at the insistence of the showrunners - which wasn't originally intended by the teleplay.

A lot of the "whaa?" stuff that ends up in scripts that seemingly makes no sense is because of "too many cooks" element of TV and movie writing. Finished teleplays often make pretty good sense, but then the showrunner, studio, and even the actors ask for a line or two here and there to be tweaked, often while paying little attention to the ramifications elsewhere in the storyu.

 

[Kor]

Tilly was hostile to May and rightly so until this episode. Then quite suddenly May is her best friend who giving up her link to is deeply upsetting for her.

...

It makes sense to me.
Dysfunctional relationships/friendships are just like this in real life.

Kor

 

[Jedi_Master]

I think she was hostile towards the idea that she was seeing hallucinations, and what "seeing things" means to her sanity and thus her career. I felt Tilly was at first frustrated that she thought she was loosing her sanity and took that frustration out on the hallucination.

We also have to take into account the character's social isolation - she has been thrust into regular interaction (including some ridiculous adventures in the Mirror Universe) with people far outside the norm for her age and mindset. She is peers with people whose rank and power are so far beyond her own that its quite unsettling.
She discovers a being who knows and understands her so intimately that they can complete each others thoughts, and she subsequently is subjected to intense emotional, physical, and mental trauma.
Her reactions in that situation could be understandably mixed.

 

[BillJ]

Ever hear of Operation Paperclip?

Yep. I'm still uneasy with it to this day. The book The Nazi's Next Door: How America Became a Safe Haven for Hitler's Men is pretty sobering.

 

[Succubint]

Tilly also talked about how she felt guilt that she never gave the original May the friendship that she'd wanted and now she's dead so she can't fix that. She transferred some of that longing to atone for her past actions in her interaction with the mycelial May.

I actually loved how genuinely frustrated and angry she was at May for kidnapping her to the MN. I loved that she expressed that anger, but then when she heard May's pleas about there being a severe threat to her people, she pushed through those feelings and still offered help. Tilly is good people and I absolutely believe she could forgive and bond with MN May quickly enough to feel that they were friends.

Her cry on Burnham's shoulder did seem more a cathartic release over everything: her near death experience when she was blasted by the energy wave, the fear she was losing her sanity and washing out of the CTP, the guilt and sadness over original May, the attack of the alien blob on her person, the kidnapping and dangerous situation in the MN and finding Culber alive after all this time and last minute save. I know I'd be a mess after all of that, once the crisis was over. I think it was a lovely moment, with Michael supporting her friend and letting her just let it all out.