Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x02 - "New Eden"

[DigificWriter]

That may be how the creators of the show came about their reasoning 'after-the-fact' for including Pike, but that's not how it is played out in the episode.
They didn't write that reasoning into the show.

They wrote it as Pike commandeering the Discovery ONLY AFTER the Enterprise was incapacitated.
Which clearly happened after the Discovery was already on its way to Vulcan.
Which can only mean he wasn't the Captain that was supposed to be at Vulcan.

Pike took command of the Discovery in the manner he did only because the original circumstances under which he was to have done so changed.

This is made pretty clear by what he says, and, as I noted, by what the producers and writers said on After Trek last year about their decision to have the Discovery and Enterprise meet.

No

So you're denying that the writers knew that Pike was going to take command of the Discovery when they sent the ship to Vulcan at the end of WYTMH? even though they explicitly stated on After Trek that they crafted that episode and the rest of Season 1 specifically around the moment of the two ships meeting?

 

[Tuskin38]

Pike took command of the Discovery in the manner he did only because the original circumstances under which he was to have done so changed.

This is made pretty clear by what he says, and, as I noted, by what the producers and writers said on After Trek last year about their decision to have the Discovery and Enterprise meet.



So you're denying that the writers knew that Pike was going to take command of the Discovery when they sent the ship to Vulcan at the end of WYTMH? even though they explicitly stated on After Trek that they crafted that episode and the rest of Season 1 specifically around the moment of the two ships meeting?

I'm denying that Pike was the captain waiting for them at Vulcan because there is ZERO evidence to suggest that.

 

[DaveyNY]

That's just 'god of the gaps.' People used to believe gods and spirits were responsible of all sorts of unexplained phenomena, but as the scientific understanding increased, the 'gods' were no longer needed to explain them. Scientists are working on understanding how the universe happened, and in one day we indeed might have that information. And if that information does not imply a god, what then?

As I stated above, that is not likely to happen in my lifetime, so as far as I'm concerned, that's for future generations to decide.

 

[DaveyNY]

Pike took command of the Discovery in the manner he did only because the original circumstances under which he was to have done so changed.

This is made pretty clear by what he says, and, as I noted, by what the producers and writers said on After Trek last year about their decision to have the Discovery and Enterprise meet.



So you're denying that the writers knew that Pike was going to take command of the Discovery when they sent the ship to Vulcan at the end of WYTMH? even though they explicitly stated on After Trek that they crafted that episode and the rest of Season 1 specifically around the moment of the two ships meeting?

That "moment" They crafted was because of an Emergency, not due to Pike already being given command of Discovery.
He says he's COMMANDEERING the Discovery...,
Not ... "Hi guys, I"m the Captain you were going to pick up at Vulcan"

You're still reading way more into the episode than the actual circumstance showed us.

 

[fireproof78]

As I stated above, that is not likely to happen in my lifetime, so as far as I'm concerned, that's for future generations to decide.

Same here.

The more I learn the more I realize that there is a lot more to learn.

 

[Tuskin38]

That "moment" They crafted was because of an Emergency, not due to Pike already being given command of Discovery.
He says he's COMMANDEERING the Discovery...,
Not ... "Hi guys, I"m the Captain you were going to pick up at Vulcan"

You're still reading way more into the episode than the actual circumstance showed us.

Also this

 

[Longinus]

Thus far, the information presented seems to indicate some sort of intelligence.

Weird. In the science circles this 'god hypothesis' doesn't seem to have much traction. There are certainly various theories for the origins of big bang that are studied, 'god did it' doesn't seem to be among them. That being said, I think 'god hypothesis' is a perfectly valid thing to study, it is just irrational to commit oneself to it due the lack of information.

There is room in my life for both scientific understanding, and spiritual belief. And the bridge between the two is philosophy and a rich opportunity for further learning.

I love philosophy, I used to study it in university ages ago. Just couple of years before I changed to art though. But that sort of speculation on the fringes of the understanding is really fascinating. It can also be an important stepping stone for science in charting what sort of questions to ask. However, when it comes to 'spirituality', I never understood 'belief' or 'faith'; either you have evidence for things or you don't. It doesn't matter if the thing is a god, unicorns or the dark matter. Sometimes the evidence is incomplete, and in such a case 'we do not know' is a perfectly valid answer. Believing in something there is no evidence for is just plain irrational.

 

[Tuskin38]

Weird. In the science circles this 'god hypothesis' doesn't seem to have much traction. There are certainly various theories for the origins of big bang that are studied, 'god did it' doesn't seem to be among them. That being said, I think 'god hypothesis' is a perfectly valid thing to study, it is just irrational to commit oneself to it due the lack of information.


I love philosophy, I used to study it in university ages ago. Just couple of years before I changed to art though. But that sort of speculation on the fringes of the understanding is really fascinating. It can also be an important stepping stone for science in charting what sort of questions to ask. However, when it comes to 'spirituality', I never understood 'belief' or 'faith'; either you have evidence for things or you don't. It doesn't matter if the thing is a god, unicorns or the dark matter. Sometimes the evidence is incomplete, and in such a case 'we do not know' is a perfectly valid answer. Believing in something there is no evidence for is just plain irrational.

Can we not do this here? Last time this happened a mod shut it down anyways.

 

[DaveyNY]

Yeah, this has become a TNZ convo and it's time to move back to the oh-so-more important question of, why Pike took over the Discovery.

 

[Longinus]

Can we not do this here? Last time this happened a mod shut it down anyways.

I see your point, but then again, if the theme of the season is indeed 'Science and Faith' or something like that, then this sort of discussion cannot be avoided; the episodes will be intentionally written to provoke such.

 

[Tuskin38]

I see your point, bu then again, if the theme of the season is indeed 'Science and Faith' or something like that, then this sort of discussion cannot be avoided; the episodes will be intentionally written to provoke such.

That's a fair point.

Though the episode tries to justify it by saying God might have been an advanced alien.

That's also how DS9 handled it.

 

[fireproof78]

Weird. In the science circles this 'god hypothesis' doesn't seem to have much traction. There are certainly various theories for the origins of big bang that are studied, 'god did it' doesn't seem to be among them. That being said, I think 'god hypothesis' is a perfectly valid thing to study, it is just irrational to commit oneself to it due the lack of information.

It would not be appropriate for a "god hypothesis" as god cannot be scientifically measured, at least last I checked.

I love philosophy, I used to study it in university ages ago. Just couple of years before I changed to art though. But that sort of speculation on the fringes of the understanding is really fascinating. It can also be an important stepping stone for science in charting what sort of questions to ask. However, when it comes to 'spirituality', I never understood 'belief' or 'faith'; either you have evidence for things or you don't. It doesn't matter if the thing is a god, unicorns or the dark matter. Sometimes the evidence is incomplete, and in such a case 'we do not know' is a perfectly valid answer. Believing in something there is no evidence for is just plain irrational.

There is evidence of a philosophical nature and requires individual willingness to explore and engage. Thus, it is a deeply personal matter, one of which I would hesitate to state "faith is irrational" since faith can be built upon prior experience and trust that a person will do what they have done in the past.

Spirituality is not just limited to the realm of just "I believe it" at least not in my experience. The most spiritual people I know are ones who are deeply introspective, open to being wrong and continue learning about what they believe, rather than blind assertions.

That's a fair point.

Though the episode tries to justify it by saying God might have been an advanced alien.

That's also how DS9 handled it.

As spiritual as I am I am open to this possibility.

 

[slappy]

If I had any minor quibbles it would be this: Pike was so steadfast about obeying General Order 1. Obey. Obey. Obey. At all costs. I won't even get into the fact that I think the Prime Directive is one of the most self-righteous rules in the history of up-your-own-ass-ness. The fact that he then went and broke it for......what exactly? First of all, didn't they all see a 23rd century phaser go off? Ok, forget that. Didn't they see three people beam away in a flash of light? Even in a semi-religious community, most people are going to be like "hold on, God doesn't do that". Ok, putting ALL that aside then...

Couldn't they have just stolen the helmet they needed, extracted the footage, and put it back without revealing who they were?

Pike broke GO1 because he wanted to. Let's just be honest.

 

[Tuskin38]

Ok, forget that. Didn't they see three people beam away in a flash of light

They were in the middle of beaming when that happened, they may not have noticed.

 

[DaveyNY]

If I had any minor quibbles it would be this: Pike was so steadfast about obeying General Order 1. Obey. Obey. Obey. At all costs. I won't even get into the fact that I think the Prime Directive is one of the most self-righteous rules in the history of up-your-own-ass-ness. The fact that he then went and broke it for......what exactly? First of all, didn't they all see a 23rd century phaser go off? Ok, forget that. Didn't they see three people beam away in a flash of light? Even in a semi-religious community, most people are going to be like "hold on, God doesn't do that". Ok, putting ALL that aside then...

Couldn't they have just stolen the helmet they needed, extracted the footage, and put it back without revealing who they were?

Pike broke GO1 because he wanted to. Let's just be honest.

I'm not really sure anybody is claiming anything else about that.
It was the "Human" thing to do, and most likely wasn't included in his Captain's Log about the incident.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Even the language of “science vs faith” reveals a basic assumption that they are mutually opposed to one another.

Because they are by definition.

If I had any minor quibbles it would be this: Pike was so steadfast about obeying General Order 1. Obey. Obey. Obey. At all costs. I won't even get into the fact that I think the Prime Directive is one of the most self-righteous rules in the history of up-your-own-ass-ness. The fact that he then went and broke it for......what exactly? First of all, didn't they all see a 23rd century phaser go off? Ok, forget that. Didn't they see three people beam away in a flash of light? Even in a semi-religious community, most people are going to be like "hold on, God doesn't do that". Ok, putting ALL that aside then...

Couldn't they have just stolen the helmet they needed, extracted the footage, and put it back without revealing who they were?

Pike broke GO1 because he wanted to. Let's just be honest.

One (me) might argue that this is thematically relevant.

 

[DaveyNY]

They were in the middle of beaming when that happened, they may not have noticed.

The High Priestess did exclaim that (paraphrase) "...The God's Have Taken Them !!!"

 

[Longinus]

It would not be appropriate for a "god hypothesis" as god cannot be scientifically measured, at least last I checked.

Only because the god probably doesn't exist. But if they would, then of course it is something that could be studied, just like the string theory.

 

[Tuskin38]

The High Priestess did exclaim that (paraphrase) "...The God's Have Tanke Them !!!"

I meant the landing party didn't notice them.

 

[fireproof78]

Only because the god probably doesn't exist. But if they would, then of course it is something that could be studied, just like the string theory.

Agree to disagree