Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x02 - "New Eden"

[shapeshifter]

What - no Space Hippy Commune?! That's Outrageous!

Otherwise New Eden is another 10. They keep raising the bar then beating it, imo. We may need to start adding eleven and twelve to the polls.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Why does that matter? What matters is how people tie their identities to something.

Well it obviously matters to trans people who feel like you're equating their essence to a choice.

 

[dahj]

"Unfortunately, my funnybone spawned in the same ocean as yours."

It's so gonna be the Preservers season, innit?
It would certainly explain why Spock is familiar with them by the time of The Paradise Syndrome...

 

[Vger23]

Well it obviously matters to trans people who feel like you're equating their essence to a choice.

Not my problem. I'm not speaking from a place of emotion. I'm simply saying that the moment we start drawing circles around groups of people and saying that they do not deserve the same level of tolerance and respect as these other groups, the game is OVER. And we lost.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I think you miss my point.

My point is that people identify just as strongly with their religious beliefs as others do with their gender identity or others do with their national or racial culture.

It's a fact.

And you can't protect and respect one while be openly dismissive of the other without being hipocritical.

How you or I personally weigh it isn't relevant. That's the entire point, and the most important point. It also happens to be the one most commonly missed.

Only one of those is based on actual science. I’m not saying those things aren’t important. But you’re born with your gender identity and it can’t be changed. That’s why trans people sometimes have dysphoria when they aren’t able to be themselves and could possibly kill themselves. No one is going to kill themselves because they can’t openly be patriotic or religious. They aren’t comparable and we have evidence to support that.

 

[Lord Garth]

What - no Space Hippy Commune?! That's Outrageous!

Otherwise New Eden is another 10. They keep raising the bar then beating it, imo. We may need to start adding eleven and twelve to the polls.

If we could go higher than 10, I'd give "Calypso" an 11.

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Wow. Nice story. Could have been a TNG episode -- or an Orville ep.

The Orville did their version of this last season. It was a mash-up of TNG's "Who Watches the Watchers" and Voyager's "Blink of an Eye" that retread familiar Berman-era Star Trek ground without adding anything new.

When I saw the title for this episode I thought we'd get some combination of "Who Watches the Watchers" and DS9's "Paradise" but instead they went in a totally different direction and it was great! Oh, and for anyone who complains that Gene Roddenberry wouldn't have approved of this episode due to his staunch atheism, this is a guy who once wrote a script where Jesus is a computer on a spaceship and Captain Kirk punches him out. After 1969 or so he was no longer a reliable judge of what was good.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Mudd episode and the Saru episode with the Latin title were the series' best episodes before last week.

 

[Vger23]

Only one of those is based on actual science. I’m not saying those things aren’t important. But you’re born with your gender identity and it can’t be changed. That’s why trans people sometimes have dysphoria when they aren’t able to be themselves and could possibly kill themselves. No one is going to kill themselves because they can’t openly be patriotic or religious. They aren’t comparable and we have evidence to support that.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I fundamentally disagree. I'm sorry it offends you. But the moment we say "you deserve more consideration/respect/tolerance than this other person" we have become filled with our own bullshit.

Religious persecution has been a real thing throughout history. Countless have been murdered as a result. And many people have sacrificed themselves for religious freedom. It means that much to people at their very core. If I were someone who felt that strongly, I'd find your statement that's it was just some arbitrary choice or "something forced on me by my parents" extremely disrespectful and insulting.

I think it is backward and wrong to play that off like it's a secondary thing.

As I said, there are as many people in the world who tie their very core identity to their spiritual faith. It's as meaningful to them as your gender identity is to you or my skin tone is to me.

To dismiss that as being deserving of second-class tolerance is wrong.

You're not going to move me off that.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Not my problem. I'm not speaking from a place of emotion. I'm simply saying that the moment we start drawing circles around groups of people and saying that they do not deserve the same level of tolerance and respect as these other groups, the game is OVER. And we lost.

You’re speaking from a place of ignorance and emotion. No one is saying that religion doesn’t deserve to be respected. But no one is born to be a Christian, you are raised to be one. It’s culture and culture is very important to us as a species. But it is in no way biological.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I fundamentally disagree. I'm sorry it offends you. But the moment we say "you deserve more consideration/respect/tolerance than this other person" we have become filled with our own bullshit.

Religious persecution has been a real thing throughout history. Countless have been murdered as a result. And many people have sacrificed themselves for religious freedom. It means that much to people's at their very core.

I think it is backward and wrong to play that off like it's a secondary thing.

As I said, there are as many people in the world who tie their very core identity to their spiritual faith. It's as meaningful to them as you gender identity is to you or my skin tone is to me.

To dismiss that as being deserving of second-class tolerance is wrong.

You're not going to move me off that.

No one is saying that.

 

[BigJake]

9/10. Well-constructed story with primary and secondary narratives that maintained a solid through-line about faith and the afterlife. Good character development; it's actually quite gratifying watching Pike and Burnham learning to work together and fully trust each other's insights and instincts. The "red angels" are an intriguing mystery. Tilly can get on my nerves from time to time but her subplot here was interesting.

 

[oberth]

What about people who chose after they're old enough to make their own choices?

Or those who grew up without a religion but then chose to follow one? Those people do exist.

they surely do. and i got no problem whatsoever with them, but they are a tiny minority. as an ex-altarboy the first own religious decission i ever made ...

 

[Vger23]

You’re speaking from a place of ignorance and emotion. No one is saying that religion doesn’t deserve to be respected. But no one is born to be a Christian, you are raised to be one. It’s culture and culture is very important to us as a species. But it is in no way biological.

We resort to calling someone "ignorant" when we don't agree?

I didn't claim anyone was saying anything of the sort.

My point, that you continuously avoid addressing, and rather continue to purposefully mask, is that YOU CANT SAY ONE IS MORE DESERVING / IMPORTANT / REAL / RATIONAL than the other. There's no frigging hierarchy.

I think I'm done. This is going nowhere good. And playing this game isn't my thing. I can't believe I let myself get suckered into this kind of discussion.

 

[CorporalClegg]

To change gears, I like the title "New Eden," even in just being the name of the place.

I think it makes for a nice thematic juxtaposition to Star Trek future Earth, the self-celebrated "paradise" built on and supported by a foundation of sciencey things.

 

[cooleddie74]

So we now have at least three human-settled planets outside our own solar system that existed before Terra Nova was colonized in the late 21st century. The humans abducted from America's Old West by the Skagarans in the 19th century, the Briori planet in the Delta Quadrant where Amelia Earhart and the other humans were taken after being abducted from Earth in 1937 and now this ringed planet deep inside the Beta Quadrant.

 

[Vger23]

So we now have at least three human-settled planets outside our own solar system that existed before Terra Nova was colonized in the late 21st century. The humans abducted from America's Old West by the Skagarans in the 19th century, the Briori planet in the Delta Quadrant where Amelia Earhart and the other humans were taken after being abducted from Earth in 1937 and now this ringed planet deep inside the Beta Quadrant.

Why are aliens always abducting us? I'd like to see a whole Star Trek series about us abducting them for a change.

 

[Awesome Possum]

We resort to calling someone "ignorant" when we don't agree?

Yes, you’re trying to equate your opinion with scientific fact.

I didn't claim anyone was saying anything of the sort.

My point, that you continuously avoid addressing, and rather continue to purposefully mask, is that YOU CANT SAY ONE IS MORE DESERVING / IMPORTANT / REAL / RATIONAL than the other. There's no frigging hierarchy.

No one is addressing it because it exists entirely in your head. We’re just saying they aren’t comparable, not that one is less than the others. It’s important, but it’s not something you’re born with. And for what it’s worth, it actually does get treated as less than the other. It happens in the US and most countries on a daily basis.

I think I'm done. This is going nowhere good. And playing this game isn't my thing. I can't believe I let myself get suckered into this kind of discussion.

Bye.

 

[Greg Cox]

So we now have at least three human-settled planets outside our own solar system that existed before Terra Nova was colonized in the late 21st century. The humans abducted from America's Old West by the Skagarans in the 19th century, the Briori planet in the Delta Quadrant where Amelia Earhart and the other humans were taken after being abducted from Earth in 1937 and now this ringed planet deep inside the Beta Quadrant.

Don't forget the Native American tribes people from "The Paradise Syndrome."

(I confess I had to look up "Skagarans.")

 

[cooleddie74]

FOUR!!!