News Kurtzman: Spock And Filling In Canon

[ozzfloyd]

Bashir is a hero, no question about that.


They used it as a bargaining chip. The Federation didn't give the cure until the war was won. So they embraced S31 tactics.

Also, I think I said in another thread that I don't want to get drawn into yet one of these discussions about amoral assholes in Star Trek, yet here we are again. I think this derail should end.

You do not HAVE to reply to such posts. Own your role in the derailings.

 

[Tuskin38]

What is your opinion about Sisko. Do you like Sisko?

They answered that already.

 

[Longinus]

You do not HAVE to reply to such posts. Own your role in the derailings.

Of course. I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't partly/mostly my fault.

 

[fireproof78]

But that only failed because the writers chose to write it so!

Really? You think DS9 is the only one to show the Federation's failings? Never mind the inept bureaucrats Kirk often fought against, the conspiracy among the Klingons, Romulans and Starfleet brass, the fact that many Starfleet admirals go a little bit crazy and have to be stopped by the heroes, or how many colonies failed under Federation control (not the least of which being the Nazi one, or the one with all the rape gangs).

DS9 was simply expanding upon threads already present in past work.

If your starting position was in favour of fascist assassins, then no amount of Star Trek (even TNG!) is gonna help you. What they did was to manage to show something that should be unequivocally wrong as maybe OK in certain light.

Star Trek should not help me. Star Trek should be one tool to allow me to think, to discuss and explore with other people.

And, there will always be people who believe the ends justify the means. Human beings are no exception, I don't care how much Star Trek wants to preach utopia and evolved humans. When the chips are down, and survival is at stake human beings will act out, like any other cornered animal. Or, are humans not animals any more?

 

[Yistaan]

There was absolutely no need for that sort of nihilism disguised as realism in Star Trek. S31 means that Federation is a lie. It is the single worst idea ever introduced in the setting. Granted, it was fine when it all could have been just bullshit spun by Sloane, but it didn't stop there. There is a subset of fans (and writers!) who would rather have Terran Empire than the Federation, and who find this sort of puerile edginess appealing.

I didn't take S31 to mean the Federation is a lie. The Federation Council doesn't approve of Section 31's actions, nor does the President by all indications. Section 31 officially doesn't exist. The Federation can't find them despite trying.

Section 31 protects the Federation with extreme methods regardless of the Federation's protests. The Federation doesn't want S31's help! But Section 31 will protect the Federation their heavy handed way whether the Federation wants it or not.

Just because the Federation decided not to give the cure to the Founders doesn't mean they approve of Section 31. But with the war going on they had no choice. If you're familiar with Star Wars, the Jedi using the clones doesn't mean they approve of the Sith who obviously were involved in the clones' creation. But once the clones were there, the Jedi had no choice but to use them. It's a similar situation with the Federation and S31.

Section 31 doesn't mean the Federation and it's people and principles are lies. It just means that outside extremists (in this case Section 31) will "protect" the Federation and say they are aligned with them regardless of whether the Federation wants their protection or said alignment to begin with.

 

[Tuskin38]

Can we get back on topic like Longinus suggested?

Maybe make a thread in the DS9 subforum for this topic.

 

[Vger23]

Can we get back on topic like Longinus suggested?

Maybe make a thread in the DS9 subforum for this topic.

True dat. Double true.

 

[fireproof78]

Section 31 doesn't mean the Federation and it's people and principles are lies. It just means that outside extremists (in this case Section 31) will "protect" the Federation and say they are aligned with them regardless of whether the Federation wants their protection or said alignment to begin with.

The ends justify means is often used in Star Trek, whether the heroes acknowledge it or not.

 

[Yistaan]

I still don't see how any explanation on why spock doesn't mention burnham could cover her not bothering to show up for his death and resurrection in the movies.

 

[Jayson1]

I still don't see how any explanation on why spock doesn't mention burnham could cover her not bothering to show up for his death and resurrection in the movies.

She could be dead in the future. I know I suggested the idea before that she could die in the series final. The logic is that it makes no sense to have two characters such as herself and Tilly with the same arc of trying to get a command someday. Let Burnham die, in a hero fashion and we find out Tilly is the one who someday becomes Captain.

Jason

 

[Ovation]

What Discovery represents is an attempt to present Prime in Kelvin drag in an attempt to appease both factions, and not succeeding (so far).

Please. Do enlighten us on how this particular opinion is magically transformed into a “fact”. I feel breathless with anticipation.

 

[XCV330]

Someone here thought they spotted her without makeup in the most recent trailer.

Nah, that was Javid Iqbal, Real Actor

 

[CaptainMurdock]

She could be dead in the future. I know I suggested the idea before that she could die in the series final. The logic is that it makes no sense to have two characters such as herself and Tilly with the same arc of trying to get a command someday. Let Burnham die, in a hero fashion and we find out Tilly is the one who someday becomes Captain.

Jason

Maybe Burnham will discover the Guardian of Forever and go back in time to prevent her parent's death.

 

[eschaton]

There was absolutely no need for that sort of nihilism disguised as realism in Star Trek. S31 means that Federation is a lie. It is the single worst idea ever introduced in the setting. Granted, it was fine when it all could have been just bullshit spun by Sloane, but it didn't stop there. There is a subset of fans (and writers!) who would rather have Terran Empire than the Federation, and who find this sort of puerile edginess appealing.

Evil admirals were already a thing in Trek. Hell, Picard was outright told by Admiral Nechayev he should have genocided the Borg when he had a chance in Descent. And that appeared to be the wish of Starfleet Command directly. At least DS9 had the good sense to treat genocide as more than a throwaway line and hide it behind Section 31, to make it clear its explicitly a bad thing.

 

[Mudd]

I'm surprised that somehow Section 31 managed to neglect having an agent on the strongest Federation ship, the Enterprise NCC-1701-D.

That would be because Section 31 is a made-up thing, not an organization that actually functions and plans, and no one running TNG was interested in that bullshit.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Maybe the Section 31 agent on the NCC-1701-D was so good that her cover was never blown.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe the Section 31 agent on the NCC-1701-D was so good that her cover was never blown.

It was supposed to be Ensign Ro but she didn't work out.

 

[Yistaan]

It was supposed to be Ensign Ro but she didn't work out.

With her awful past, i wouldn't be surprised if tasha agreed with s31's methods. Maybe she even knew about selas mother and s31 used that as a recruiting method - - look what federation ideals did to the other you!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It was supposed to be Ensign Ro but she didn't work out.

What, seriously?

 

[Nerys Myk]

It was Troi. No one would suspect her.