USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[BillJ]

Window-counting shows a certain fundamentalist slaving for something that was meant to be entertainment. It's almost masochistic, expecting, needing, craving these continents of continuity free of fault lines. It's not going to happen and yet people want it. A reboot will probably happen. At some point. But it doesn't have to. We could just lighten up. That's all it takes.

I don't think that is it though. I think it is simply impossible to do a prequel to something that is fifty years old and hanging onto any kind of consistent feel between the two.

You can match up names and dates between the two, but there's no way you can line up the feel between the two. In eight years, we go from Cadet Tilly calling out Klingons on a dangerous mission to women hiding and proclaiming they are frightened.

Do we want a new version of Spock connected to one that essentially mocks a potential rape victim by saying the potential rapist has "interesting qualities"?

SPOCK: The, er, impostor had some interesting qualities, wouldn't you say, Yeoman?

As much as I love the original, there are things that I would rather go away and never be connected to the franchise again. That is part of the "lore" that people are so vehemently defending. Women being essentially second-class citizens is part of the "lore".

 

[ITDUDE]

It becomes a 2x4 to endlessly beat up DSC for not fitting in to the Star Trek mold. And then it all gets portrayed as fact.

Wait wait wait wait. Just because STD is not Prime, doesn't mean it doesn't fit a Star Trek "mold" just on that fact alone. ST09 is not Prime and it is a fine example of Trek. STD not feeling like real Trek has nothing to do with it being in Prime or not.

 

[ITDUDE]

In 50 years will anyone remember the Crossfield class compared to the Constitution class??

If in 50 years Star Trek still exists, it will be a victory in and of itself.

 

[BillJ]

...STD not feeling like real Trek has nothing to do with it being in Prime or not.

I think it feels like Trek, in the finest tradition of episodes like "Threshold" or "Code of Honor". Basically, what pissed me off the most about Discovery is the missed potential.

 

[ITDUDE]

I think it feels like Trek, in the finest tradition of episodes like "Threshold" or "Code of Honor". Basically, what pissed me off the most about Discovery is the missed potential.

I see what you did there...
STD needs better writers and a much better lead (no more monologues for Michael Boringham, pleeease) . They need to drop "twist of the week" type of story telling. Stop trying to shock us with "twists". Best case scenario the twist works once, but doesn't add anything to rewatchability. Worst case scenario the twist is seen a mile away and also adds nothing while taking away from more important story telling.

 

[Belz...]

Any canon facts can be changed in a moment by the showrunners, simply by contradicting them. So they, at least, can "reinterpret" whatever they choose.

Yes.

Nothing fictional is a fact, duh.

I've already said that facts in fiction can change or be contradictory. Nothing you say here is a problem for my argument.

Except the look.

No, that's included in what I said.

I'll repeat what I've said all along: watch the show, if you think it is Prime, then it is Prime. If you don't think it is Prime, then it isn't Prime.

If I think Spock says "fascinating" then he says it. If I think he instead says "Louis Pasteur", then that's what he actually says. After all there are no facts in fiction.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Quote me. I never said this.

Reiterating what I said earlier, I may well have have misunderstood what you meant, quite possibly having missed important context as I was composing replies to others, but to be clear, the following exchange is what prompted my initial comments to you that led to our protracted debate on subjectivity and objectivity:

There was no need to update, at least for artistic reasons.

Well, some of us think there was. How do we reconcile those two viewpoints?

Some things can be true at once.

Not contradictory things, however. Something can't be blue and not blue at the same time.

This has been a very chaotic and most frustrating thread. I will try to get back to it and further address various additional points that you and others have raised later, after I've had a bit more of a break (and perhaps even a little "rebooty"). No guarantees, though. In the meantime, take care, all!


-MMoM

 

[Ronald Held]

In principle Star Trek should last another 50 years, if CBS does not ruining it.

 

[fireproof78]

Wait wait wait wait. Just because STD is not Prime, doesn't mean it doesn't fit a Star Trek "mold" just on that fact alone. ST09 is not Prime and it is a fine example of Trek. STD not feeling like real Trek has nothing to do with it being in Prime or not.

But, that's the difference. I don't care if it is Prime. It's still Star Trek, just another flavor of Star Trek.

 

[Mudd]

If in 50 years Star Trek still exists, it will be a victory in and of itself.

Come on, do we feel that way about measles?

 

[Belz...]

Come on, do we feel that way about measles?

Are the flowers blooming in Houston?

 

[Nerys Myk]

In eight years, we go from Cadet Tilly calling out Klingons on a dangerous mission to women hiding and proclaiming they are frightened.

And that's something you'd want keep? That's an important part of Star Trek?

 

[fireproof78]

And that's something you'd want keep? That's an important part of Star Trek?

Yes. Everything must be preserved.

 

[Gepard]

And that's something you'd want keep? That's an important part of Star Trek?

I think his point is more that they're impossible to reconcile. 50+ years on, you basically can't make a prequel that feels like it fits in-continuity with the original series. You just can't; cultural attitudes and assumptions have changed too much. So, if I may conclude an argument on his behalf, don't call it Prime and call it a reboot.

(@BillJ , have I got that right?)

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think his point is more that they're impossible to reconcile. 50+ years on, you basically can't make a prequel that feels like it fits in-continuity with the original series. You just can't; cultural attitudes and assumptions have changed too much. So, if I may conclude an argument on his behalf, don't call it Prime and call it a reboot.

(@BillJ , have I got that right?)

The cultural attitudes and assumptions aren't really that important. I don't see why they matter. "Prime" isn't about the 1960's. (or 80's, 90's and 00's). Star Trek is bigger than that.

 

[Gepard]

^I don't even disagree with all that, I just think you're doing him a disservice by implying he's demanding sexism in his Star Trek prequel. It doesn't look like that to me.

 

[Nerys Myk]

^I don't even disagree with all that, I just think you're doing him a disservice by implying he's demanding sexism in his Star Trek prequel. It doesn't look like that to me.

I don't think Bill is. I know him well enough to know that he wouldn't want that in a modern TV show.

 

[cooleddie74]

I think it feels like Trek, in the finest tradition of episodes like "Threshold" or "Code of Honor". Basically, what pissed me off the most about Discovery is the missed potential.

DSC veers between good-to-great episodes and boredom- and eyeroll-inducing inconsequence. Even omitting the visual issues and focusing only on the stories the series is infuruatingly uneven in quality. I love it one week and find myself frustratingly unimpressed the next.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I personally consider each production era to be in its own visual bubble.

The lore is shared between them, but the visuals are not.

This is all my personal opinion.

Since Leonard Nimoy's Spock never had a sister and those visual changes alter the stories, I go a little further and place them in entirely seperate bubbles. Same world, new interpretation. Ethan Peck's Spock, that's the one who has a sister. And his Spock lives in a world where D7 Klingon ships look more like Destiny from SGU, and the Enterprise crew wear bright coloured versions of the Discovery outfits.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Benny went through a lot of rewrites while he was hospitalized.

If TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT are the writings of Benny Russel, DSC is the tweets of Jaden Smith.