USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

That’s one of the best descriptions of DSC I’ve ever read

I’m afraid to ask what that makes the Kelvin timeline...

 

Technically he still doesn't. And Vulcans embrace technicalities.

 

Did you place Return of the Jedi in a separate bubble from Star Wars, too? Because 1977 Luke never had a sister either, and lived in a world where Jabba the Hutt was just a fat dude who wore furs...



-MMoM

 

While it's true that during the production of the original Star Wars, Leia was never intended to be Luke's sister, the Irish guy wearing the furs was also never intended to be the 'real' Jabba. Lucas only used him as a stand-in for a CGI Jabba to be superimposed over him. But because they didn't have the technology to do that at the time, the scene was cut.

 

Then why does Han say "Jabba, you're a wonderful human being"?

 

"IRONY!!!"

 

He's human like Daniels from Enterprise is human: "More or less".

 

Also, if that scene was ever intended to be used in the film, then why does Han basically repeat everything he says in it later, when he's talking to Greedo?

 

Huh? Han talked to Greedo first, then met Jabba.

 

When they cut the Jabba scene, the Greedo scene was rewritten to include some of the the same exposition. That's why Greedo speaks alien nonsense while Han speaks English without a translator; originally Greedo spoke English too but they overdubbed him and rewrote his dialog in the subtitles so they wouldn't have to reshoot the entire thing.

 

Then why this endless debate if you don't even want DSC and TOS to connect?

 

That scene was never in the original movie, so I don't think it counts

Prime Spock is Prime Spock, they're the same character, doesn't matter what actor is playing him.

Just because Spock never mentioned having an adoptive sister, doesn't meant he never had one.

 

I'm actually really glad you brought that up, Dukkie ol' pal 'o' mine from days gone by at Flare, for several reasons...

George Lucas indeed claimed that later on, as a justification for his "restoration" of the scene with a CGI Jabba for the 1997 Special Edition, just as he claimed a whole lot of things about what he "originally intended" that don't entirely square with what was actually shot at the time. Scrutinizing this claim even lightly leads to some glaring questions that give ample cause to doubt it. Why would Declan Mullholland be fully costumed and made up in-character, if he was just supposed to be a stand-in? And why would the scene have been staged as it was, with Ford passing both in front of and behind Mullholland, and with both in motion against background elements, and even sharing physical contact, at various points throughout? Doesn't add up. (More on this here.)

But in any case, that something more elaborate and alien had always been intended, and merely thwarted by production limitations, is precisely what Gene Roddenberry claimed (at times) as his reason for changing the Klingons in TMP, too! (Although at others, he also hedged and claimed they were simply a different race of Klingons from those in TOS, no doubt to placate enquiring fans who weren't satisfied with the first answer.)

Moreover, as I've posted before, The Making Of Star Trek yields contemporaneous documentation that during production of TOS he envisioned Kirk's Enterprise as being equipped with a holographic entertainment center and holo-communicators as well, and that clothing would be molecularly assembled and disassembled, and so on—all stuff that DSC has depicted in more or less faithful accordance with the original conception, and been castigated for here nevertheless because it allegedly (but under closer examination, not actually) contradicts one-off lines in single episodes of DS9 and VGR.

(Note that we never hear any of this addressed by @King Daniel Beyond, despite his eagerness to repeatedly jump on the fact that they may have elected to ignore the TOS writers guide's suggestion of Kirk's Enterprise being the "largest and most modern" of Starfleet ships—a suggestion which, BTW, is repeated in TMoST, yet there in conjunction with the further context that her design is already forty years old at that point! That's somehow not enough time for something bigger and better to come along?)

Finally, as for scenes being cut...the entirety of "The Cage" is one giant cut scene! And even those portions of it that went on to be included in "The Menagerie" (TOS) are there presented as an illusion within an illusion that we can ultimately have absolute trust in none of!

TL;DR: That's the very point I was making!

-MMoM

 

The only things I can think of are:

1. If Lucas changed his mind and decided to leave the scene in, Mulholland was already in costume and they still could have used the footage.

2. Lucas's original envisioning for Jabba was that he was more humanoid than what was later shown in ROTJ.


FYI, to back up scenario #1, during the filming of TPM, the stand-in actor for Watto was also wearing a costume that could have been used as the character had that awful winged Jewish stereotype CGI alien not been used.

 

Not anymore. It was in the 60s, but that changed decades later.

 

And if it can change once, it can change back. (Not that it has to, by anything we've seen on DSC thus far.)

-MMoM

[P.S. -- the above applies both to the in-continuity status of "The Cage" and to the in-universe configuration of the Enterprise, whichever way you want to take it!]

 

Well the creators of the show have used 'The Cage' as a historical reference when telling people when DSC took place.

 

Uhm, not really, not in the case of "The Cage". Unless you have time travel abilities that I'm not aware of (please don't erase me from the time stream!) there's really nothing that can be changed about "The Cage" having aired on TV:

 

Well other then CBS making an official statement.

 

I thought your position was that they only meant the events, not the depiction?

It only aired with bookends of Gene Roddenberry or Patrick Stewart talking about its status as a rejected pilot or "television document" until it was "remastered," at which point it also had all its special effects replaced with new versions, so how would it really affect anything if DSC were to replace them again? If you're going to be that literal in interpreting "released, therefore canon" you might as well go all the way.



-MMoM