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Totally. But writers need to be aware of audience perception. 24 is always one day, but will remember it as last year, or the first years season etc. If he’s there for a season, at the end of this, it will mean fifty percent of Discovery was under him. Jellico was captain of the D for what...a couple of weeks? Riker did a few weeks as Captain in gambit, and at least two days in BoBW. Data had the Sutherland for the duration of the Klingon Civil war blockade...which was minutes on screen, but must have been longer in universe. None of which means we think of those ships as theirs. Give Pike the DSC for a season, it becomes his ship, more than enterprise ever was. That would be a mistake I think. Two, maybe three episodes, or it’s going to tip a balance.

I don't see that as a problem.
I think that's actually the point of it: That ultimately the DIS will be Burnhams ship. And that needs her serving on it for a longer time under different Captains, and rising through the ranks on that ship. So that in the beginning she is the new guy, but in S3 she knows it "better" than their newly assigned Captain.

So having Pike as Captain for a while works in this context: They have to bridge a lot of time with other Captains, and having him stay for an entire season works better than changing the Captain every few episodes.

Yet you are right, the writers need to be carefull, and need to regularly remind the audience that Pike is actually the Captain of the Enterprise primarily, and this is only an assigned job - like having him communicate with the Enterprise often, and ramble about his duty to two ships in private environments. Then I think it's actually a good idea to have a "classic" Captain a longer time around Burnham could look up to, and learn from, only to then eventually develop her own leading style.
 
Yet you are right, the writers need to be carefull, and need to regularly remind the audience that Pike is actually the Captain of the Enterprise primarily, and this is only an assigned job - like having him communicate with the Enterprise often, and ramble about his duty to two ships in private environments.

I really don't need this. I know who Pike is and what his role is. Regularly name dropping the Enterprise is just poor writing, in my opinion.

Then I think it's actually a good idea to have a "classic" Captain a longer time around Burnham could look up to, and learn from, only to then eventually develop her own leading style.

They already did that with Georgiou. We didn't see it, but it was already done and we were told about it.
 
I don't see that as a problem.
I think that's actually the point of it: That ultimately the DIS will be Burnhams ship. And that needs her serving on it for a longer time under different Captains, and rising through the ranks on that ship. So that in the beginning she is the new guy, but in S3 she knows it "better" than their newly assigned Captain.

So having Pike as Captain for a while works in this context: They have to bridge a lot of time with other Captains, and having him stay for an entire season works better than changing the Captain every few episodes.

Yet you are right, the writers need to be carefull, and need to regularly remind the audience that Pike is actually the Captain of the Enterprise primarily, and this is only an assigned job - like having him communicate with the Enterprise often, and ramble about his duty to two ships in private environments. Then I think it's actually a good idea to have a "classic" Captain a longer time around Burnham could look up to, and learn from, only to then eventually develop her own leading style.

Thing is, DSC is sarus ship. Now Burnham has her rank and record back, they have too many chiefs not enough Indians. Especially with it all being ex Shenzhou on the bridge. Maybe they need to repair and commission the Shenzhou for one of them.
 
I think a problem is that they didn't show us the ship in the beginning. All other Trek pilots have somewhat of a "ship tour" in them, where they show you all the significant places - the bridge, engine room, medical, quarters and mess hall.

DIS didn't do that. Untill quite a few episodes in, we didn't see anything of the ship other than grey halls, Burnhams workplace, her quarter, and the the bridge sometimes. Which made the ship feel very, very empty, and artificial. Like, if they would go to a new room (like sickbay), we the audience wouldn't know what it would look like. Which works for a few episodes to make the ship feel "mysterious". But after a while Burnham should feel familiar with it, but WE never did, and that's a problem.

That and no decent glory shots. Ships get those usually, and if it happened in DSC I already forget it. Possibly because the damn asteroid preview was all we had for months.
 
That and no decent glory shots. Ships get those usually, and if it happened in DSC I already forget it. Possibly because the damn asteroid preview was all we had for months.
We didn't even get to see "Discovery" until third episode. However we are treated to those wonderful sketches in the opening ...
 
I really don't need this. I know who Pike is and what his role is. Regularly name dropping the Enterprise is just poor writing, in my opinion.

You know him. I know him. Hell, probably everyone on this forum knows him.

But for regular audiences? They really have to be carefull. Otherwise they will really think he is the new Captain of this ship, and not that other one.

They already did that with Georgiou. We didn't see it, but it was already done and we were told about it.

Yeah. Technically. But it didn't really work out, since Burnham at that time clearly wasn't ready for command. Maybe this time she will actually take notes...?
 
Thing is, DSC is sarus ship. Now Burnham has her rank and record back, they have too many chiefs not enough Indians. Especially with it all being ex Shenzhou on the bridge. Maybe they need to repair and commission the Shenzhou for one of them.

Is it though?
Because Saru might be first officer. But he's very obvious still very, very green behind his ears. He didn't get the chance of learning from Gergiou, and, well, Lorca probably wasn't the best type of teacher...
So while technically he still ranks above Burnham, she is clearly more suited for a leadership position than him at the moment.
I just hope they don't make that point too on the nose by having Saru in command and then fuck up royally so that Burnham has to take over and right the ship...
 
Is it though?
Because Saru might be first officer. But he's very obvious still very, very green behind his ears. He didn't get the chance of learning from Gergiou, and, well, Lorca probably wasn't the best type of teacher...
So while technically he still ranks above Burnham, she is clearly more suited for a leadership position than him at the moment.
I just hope they don't make that point too on the nose by having Saru in command and then fuck up royally so that Burnham has to take over and right the ship...

I agree. I like Saru, but he's nowhere near ready for command. Neither is Burnham for that matter. I like those characters right where they are right now. And if we need to go through the "awesome and interesting captain of the season" drill for a couple/few years...that works well thus far.
 
In the beginning, there must have been plenty of stories that the producers wanted to tell. The mirror universe story was just one of them. I would not have used that one as early as they did.

As matters stand right now, they are hailing Discovery as a success and saying that Star Trek is a cornerstone to All Access....and that is why they are bringing out more Trek.

A stronger story than the MU would have brought things to the same result and more.

I guess it comes down to whether you start out with an optimistic view or a pessimistic view as far as what the results will be.

I flat-out would not begin with a pessimistic view of "We absolutely have to tell X story over here, because we may only get a season or less before being cancelled and if we don't do it now we may not get the chance at all."

If that was the strongest story in their pool of stories at the beginning, they needed better writers and they are lucky that it was as well-received as it was. It was not terrible, by any means, but there was a lot of room for improvement and a lot of it seemed very rushed. Not all of the criticism of the show thus far is justified, but some is.

As far as Spock, a limited interaction with Michael would be good, but it should not be overdone. Discovery and Enterprise working together on a mission is fine, but don't draw it out too long and don't shift the entire focus to Pike and Spock and the Enterprise. An additional series of their own....fine. But not to the detriment of Discovery. Let that ship and her crew have their own strong stories. Michael was on the Shenzhou for 7 years. Georgiou expected Michael to have her own command soon. They did the MU story and Michael showed her strengths through that. Okay. Make her Discovery's new captain. Have Saru as her Number One. It's an interesting dynamic that would have every opportunity to continue to be interesting. And start fleshing out the character and stories of the rest of the bridge crew, in a natural flowing way, in the middle of interesting adventures.
 
I don't see how having Pike is fanwank, he was in 2 episodes of the entire (prime) franchise.

As a former captain of the enterprise.
Which has now shown up.
Why not another ship? Why not Captain April? Why make him become DSCs captain at all?
These things are all the sound of a zipper on collective fandoms trousers.
 
I don't see how having Pike is fanwank, he was in 2 episodes of the entire (prime) franchise.

The only benefit of "Pike" is the name recognition, same goes for Pike in the Abramsverse. It really is the definition of fanwank. Doesn't mean it will be bad, but it is still fanwank.
 
Because that's what the writers wanted? Maybe they wanted to expand Pike because they liked the character?

If they weren't already neck deep in fanwank from season one, I might agree with you. But here we are...

I understand wanting to cram as much popular Trek references into the show as possible from a business perspective. I mean, I'm sure CBS knows Rogue One did a billion dollars, nostalgia is huge business. We seem to be moving to a point in our culture where we are perpetually stuck in the past.

From a perspective of wanting something new, it really sucks to be a Trek fan right now. Instead of expanding the universe, it is getting smaller and smaller. Which is really weird, because the only new concept they introduced, the Spore Drive, should have led to a huge expansion of the universe. Instead, we just get more and more of the usual suspects.
 
Fanwank is whatever certain people here want. They've admitted outright it's how they get their mini-zen.

I'm done playing this game.

Anyone who's smart will walk out of it too.
 
Well written fan wank is just as good as well written *whatever else it is you like*.
 
Fanwank is whatever certain people here want. They've admitted outright it's how they get their mini-zen.

I'm done playing this game.

Anyone who's smart will walk out of it too.

And just so there's no confusion, here's my post. Which was a comment on how much fun I have talking Trek with most folks here...

This is my mini-zen. I have lots of fun talking Trek with you guys. It is even more fun when we don't agree on everything.

...it was actually a compliment towards people here.

I really didn't think you'd use it to take a cheap shot.
 
Actually, a problem of early TNG is that the production looks like TOS. The same cheap sets with painted walls as "sky", barely improved vfx, and generally the way of storytelling stuck up in the past (much like S1 of DIS is extremely similar to late Berman-era in production design and writing).

When TNG S1 looked significantly better, was when it was able to use the ressources of the TOS movies - having much more detailed starships (Excelsiour, Oberth), re-using that same, amazing spacedock scene. But the lack of new materials was obvious: THe one time the klingons appeared, they flew the same 100 years old D7/K'Tinga starship from TMP. (Though they cleverly addressed it in that episode, as being an old klingon ship). It's only later in the series they started to have new looking ships in that quality (The Romulan and Klingon ships of the TNG era).

What differentiated TNG right from the beginning from TOS was the characters: Right from the start, Picard (and thus the whole crew) would approach the same situations extremely different. Instead of Kirks head-first approach, the new debate-culture was right there from the beginning. The characters still needed heavy re-working though - the writing was everything else but smooth in the first season. But what made TNG great in the end, all was already existing in the early season. Just very bare and unpolished.

I hope the same is true for DIS (though that of course can only be said in retrospect). TNG S1 had vastly superiour stories than DIS S1, DIS really failed at that level, both the plots, and the overall plotting, sacrificing characters for cheap plot twists at the end of each episode.

But at the same time, IMO, DIS has enurmous potential. Their characters are good. All of them still have some problems that need fixing - Burnham is waaay too much defined by her backstory than her actual actions on the show, Saru is one of the most interesting aliens on Trek in general but is in some heavy need of focus, Tilly and Stamets need a bit more consistent arcs, and the rest of the crew are essentially blank slates that need to be filled. But this crew is a great ensemble - while each character is "good" on their own, the combination of them elevates each one. The few moments the show actually focused on the characters instead of trying to impress the audience with shock values, they completely stole the show.

What I think the show needs is to slow down a bit. Give the characters room to breath. So that when eventually shit hits the fan, we know these guys. They shouldn't fixate so much on what could be good "twist" in their storyline, but rather, what's a good challenge to test their characters. Oh, and overall more imaginative plots would be great - I'm sick of war stories and space battles in sci-fi, I can get them literally everywhere else, and superhero-movies do the bad-guy stories much better. A few high-concept stories and ideas would be nice - not trying to save the universe, but testing the characters to solve extremely difficult puzzles.

The trailer for S2 already hints at them taking some steps in the right direction. If they succeed, DIS could become a magnificent show. Or they continue to drop the ball. We shall see.
With regard to S1 what the hell are you talking about? They were using the TOS film model of the U.S.S. Excelsior in the pilot Encounter At Farpoint and the next episode The Naked Now had an Obereth class TOS film era ship model. The effects for the first Season were also done by ILM and were hardly just a 'slight upgrade' from the TOS TV series visual effects from the late 1960ies.

Overall, the 1701n ship interior sets weren't cheap looking but the 'Planet Hell' set sure was. Also the problem many TOS fans had was that the show (and characters) really WEREN'T LIKE the characters from TOS - beyond the first few episodes; the "Hey we're perfect/utterly well-adjusted (except for the Klingon) people from a Utopian society..." (TOS era society was NEVER portrayed as Utopian); and in general, this show started taking aspects of itself way too seriously; and also did a lot of retconning of the TOS era (EX. the "Prime Directive" suddenly applying to even advanced space faring civilizations that just weren't UFP members <--- That was not the PD from TOS at all. ) It made me wonder how the TNG Federation survided since it would mean they could to no interstellar trading outside of the Federation for example). TNG started as basically what would have been GR's 'Star Trek Phase II' with just a date change (IE 100 years after TOS). As a TOS fan, I'm really happy I didn't have to deal with GR actually trying to retcon Kirk and Co. into 'kinder/gentler Utopian versions of themselves.
 
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