Klingons appearance - history repeats itself

[eschaton]

"Improvement" is highly subjective. In my opinion, the Klingons never needed a redesign and the TNG ones are among the most aggravating designs, and storylines, ever to infect Trek. They are not enjoyable or interesting and the constant insistence that every Trek must have Klingons it is is aggravating, at best, with DSC being no exception. DSC is at least one of the few times that I have actually been engaged with the Klingons as a species.

Could you explain what you mean here?

To my own eyes, TOS Klingons are boring. Don't get me wrong - I think Kor and Kang were good antagonists, well-acted, etc. But the Klingon Empire in TOS was never anything more than "the bad guys" who opposed the Federation and were sneaky. Aside from finding out about Kahless, there was absolutely nothing about Klingon culture, language, art, music - anything which made them seem like a living, breathing race. That only really started with TNG, and continued with DS9.

 

[lawman]

In my opinion, the Klingons never needed a redesign and the TNG ones are among the most aggravating designs, and storylines, ever to infect Trek. They are not enjoyable or interesting and the constant insistence that every Trek must have Klingons it is is aggravating, at best, with DSC being no exception. DSC is at least one of the few times that I have actually been engaged with the Klingons as a species.

I agree with most of this... until the last sentence. The treatment of the Klingons we were promised in DSC — one that explored deeper underlying fault lines of politics and philosophy, inspired by John M. Ford's Final Reflection — was not remotely the treatment of the Klingons the show delivered, which was a tedious one-note enemy, implacable until the plot required otherwise.

Also, and largely this is my point, if creators are not allowed to redesign aspects of their creation, why is TMP accepted and DSC rejected? The rationale behind the TMP Klingons is just the same as DSC Klingons.

That's not really so, in terms of either the real-world or in-story rationale. In real world terms, the rationale was that resources were finally available to do a seriously thought-out design, in contrast to the quick-and-dirty pseduo-Mongol makeup used for Klingons on the original show. That doesn't apply to DSC, as the money and makeup techniques being used aren't really any improvement over those of the previous 30 years. In in-universe terms, the rationale (eventually) was that there were actually two different Klingon phenotypes, one of which looked more human than the other due to the effects of a morphogenic virus. That doesn't apply to DSC either — nor does any other; that's the point, no explanation at all has been offered — and indeed the show even ignores the implications of the previous rationale. DSC has literally taken a long-standing problem that was finally fixed and managed to make it even worse than it was before.

To my own eyes, TOS Klingons are boring. Don't get me wrong - I think Kor and Kang were good antagonists, well-acted, etc. But the Klingon Empire in TOS was never anything more than "the bad guys" who opposed the Federation and were sneaky. Aside from finding out about Kahless, there was absolutely nothing about Klingon culture, language, art, music - anything which made them seem like a living, breathing race. That only really started with TNG, and continued with DS9.

We agree about a lot on this subject, but not this. I like TOS Klingons – the makeup I can take or leave, but on an individual level Kor, Koloth, and Kang were capable, clever opponents, and on a collective level they worked well metaphorically, as an enemy bent on expansionism equal to the Federation's own but with less charitable motives and means, an allegory for (a certain view of) the Cold War.

True, they didn't have much in the way of culture. However, the culture that was grafted onto them in TNG was never satisfying — they became a weird patchwork caricature of biker gang/Viking/samurai culture, in a way that bore no real connection to their behavior in TOS, saddled with a preoccupation with "honor" that would have better fit the Romulans, and was paper-thin anyway, an empty word the definition of which changed with the wind. The Klingon-based episodes of TNG and DS9 were aways among the most tedious for me. I would much rather have seen the show develop them along the thoughtful, nuanced lines extrapolated by Ford, as mentioned above.

 

[fireproof78]

That's not really so, in terms of either the real-world or in-story rationale. In real world terms, the rationale was that resources were finally available to do a seriously thought-out design, in contrast to the quick-and-dirty pseduo-Mongol makeup used for Klingons on the original show. That doesn't apply to DSC, as the money and makeup techniques being used aren't really any improvement over those of the previous 30 years. In in-universe terms, the rationale (eventually) was that there were actually two different Klingon phenotypes, one of which looked more human than the other due to the effects of a morphogenic virus. That doesn't apply to DSC either — nor does any other; that's the point, no explanation at all has been offered — and indeed the show even ignores the implications of the previous rationale. DSC has literally taken a long-standing problem that was finally fixed and managed to make it even worse than it was before.

I don't see it as a problem, until they offer an explanation (all Klingons look this way type thing) that is completely at odds with continuity.

Could you explain what you mean here?

To my own eyes, TOS Klingons are boring. Don't get me wrong - I think Kor and Kang were good antagonists, well-acted, etc. But the Klingon Empire in TOS was never anything more than "the bad guys" who opposed the Federation and were sneaky. Aside from finding out about Kahless, there was absolutely nothing about Klingon culture, language, art, music - anything which made them seem like a living, breathing race. That only really started with TNG, and continued with DS9.

When I think of Klingons, I think of the The Undiscovered Country. The variation of physical appearance, the different cultural attitudes that reflected a mixed culture than that a monolithic one. Now, I recognize that part of that owes itself to what TNG had done up to that point, but, in my opinion, TUC opened up Klingon culture in a way that was consistent with TOS presentation (Chang could easily be Kor in terms of posturing with Kirk) while not blathering on about honor.

I might have given in to hyperbole regarding TNG era Klingons, but I felt they were overdone. DSC Klingons were interesting in seeing the internal schisms and plotting and maneuvering, as well as their attitude towards the Federation. Maybe it's been done before-probably has been. But, it grabbed me differently this time in a way that I felt more engaged.

 

[Greg Cox]

Personally I think there's a bit of a difference between retconning 7 episodes and retconning a few hundred.

But, again, those seven episodes were the only Klingons any of us had ever seen for at least thirteen years, so it was just as big a change to us back in 1979---when TOS was the whole of STAR TREK. (And that's not even counting TAS, which also featured old-school Klingons.) Those were the Klingons we'd grown up with for our entire lives.

Seven episodes may seem like only a small percentage of Trek now, when looking back from the vantage point of 2018, after umpteen movies and spin-offs and sequels, but TOS was all of STAR TREK at the time. And had been for as long as there had been STAR TREK and Star Trek fans. At the time.

We weren't comparing this change to some hypothetical future change forty years down the road. We were happy just to have a new movie at last. The idea that, well, maybe we should keep this in perspective because someday there might be five more TV series and hundreds of new episodes didn't really affect our reactions.

 

[DaveyNY]

But, again, those seven episodes were the only Klingons any of us had ever seen for at least thirteen years, so it was just as big a change to us back in 1979---when TOS was the whole of STAR TREK. (And that's not even counting TAS, which also featured old-school Klingons.) Those were the Klingons we'd grown up with for our entire lives.

Seven episodes may seem like only a small percentage of Trek now, when looking back from the vantage point of 2018, after umpteen movies and spin-offs and sequels, but TOS was all of STAR TREK at the time. And had been for as long as there had been STAR TREK and Star Trek fans. At the time.

We weren't comparing this change to some hypothetical future change forty years down the road. We were happy just to have a new movie at last. The idea that, well, maybe we should keep this in perspective because someday there might be five more TV series and hundreds of new episodes didn't really affect our reactions.

Hell, many of us were just extremely happy that They were making another Trek episode and a Full-Length Movie to boot!!!
That also went a long way in mitigating the changes presented.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's not so much about the number of episodes, compared to the later stuff, but the fact that the TOS Klingons were the only Klingons to date. We had no other redesigns to compare that change to, nor any reason to expect any future redesigns.

It's about what you grew up thinking a Klingon looked like.

 

[Kor]

Plus all the old-school Klingons' appearances in the wonderful Gold Key comics.

Kor

 

[Refuge]

There is anger though, maybe not from you personally, but it's there throughout the fandom. Browse through the DSC forums and youtube comments, facebook groups and videos. People genuinely are feeling upset and betrayed about this. Why? What could possibly warrant that anger? Aren't there bigger questions in the world?

The last change made no more sense either, not really. People retrospectively justify why it was different then but the fact is it was just as big a deal at the time and no one felt the need to explain it. Why do so now?

Much the same could be said for the Romulans, the Borg, the Trill, the Tellarites. All of these species have changed appearance at least once without this level of backlash, why do the Klingons generate such a personal and heartfelt response, even though we know it's happened before?

Well of course there are bigger questions in the world but that is in part why people do care about entertainment, why they invest in escapism. We gravitate to these discussion forums for the same reasons. If it were just a matter of acceptance then where is the appreciation of quality and the ability to be discerning in that? I have standards, lol. I think too some of us approach a work with different expectations. I look at Star Trek within its stated universe and I judge the writing and development of character and theme in context of this. Yes, it is "Discovery" but it is also part of a greater body, it's Star Trek.

Vulcans as depicted in Discovery look pretty much as they will need to for us to link in Spock. That makes sense to me. I'm expecting a reason to also explain how the current Klingons will also fit in with the ones that are on record in TOS.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Literally no one? Well, that's not true.

I've opted not to buy the TNG Blu-rays because they retconned the Borg personal force field VFX in "Q Who" to have the green color typical of later episodes' VFX rather than the gray color it originally did. Why? That was a seminal episode and the VFX of the personal force field were equally seminal. I'd have much preferred the original to be preserved in HD for posterity, since that was what was so dang interesting at the time. So, no Blu-rays for me.

Seriously?? The VFX for the Borg personal shields is a deal breaker and completely ruins ALL of remastered TNG? That's like throwing the baby out with the entire bathroom.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Seriously?? The VFX for the Borg personal shields is a deal breaker and completely ruins ALL of remastered TNG? That's like throwing the baby out with the entire bathroom.

Again, that's not what I said. Pay attention. I said it means I'm not inclined to spend money on it. I'm not throwing out anything. I'm just not buying it. Why is this hard to understand? If it were gifted to me, I wouldn't get rid of it; the person paying for it would already have decided it was worth spending money on.

 

[fireproof78]

Vulcans as depicted in Discovery look pretty much as they will need to for us to link in Spock. That makes sense to me. I'm expecting a reason to also explain how the current Klingons will also fit in with the ones that are on record in TOS.

Which is a reasonable expectation.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Again, that's not what I said. Pay attention. I said it means I'm not inclined to spend money on it. I'm not throwing out anything. I'm just not buying it. Why is this hard to understand? If it were gifted to me, I wouldn't get rid of it; the person paying for it would already have decided it was worth spending money on.

I find it hard to understand because you're choosing not to purchase something solely because of changes to a minuscule effect in a handful of episodes.

 

[Spot261]

Well of course there are bigger questions in the world but that is in part why people do care about entertainment, why they invest in escapism. We gravitate to these discussion forums for the same reasons. If it were just a matter of acceptance then where is the appreciation of quality and the ability to be discerning in that? I have standards, lol. I think too some of us approach a work with different expectations. I look at Star Trek within its stated universe and I judge the writing and development of character and theme in context of this. Yes, it is "Discovery" but it is also part of a greater body, it's Star Trek.

Vulcans as depicted in Discovery look pretty much as they will need to for us to link in Spock. That makes sense to me. I'm expecting a reason to also explain how the current Klingons will also fit in with the ones that are on record in TOS.

But why do people single this particular change out when so man y others are barely even noticed? We've covered the fact they changed visibly at least once before but ever noticed how their behaviour has changed? They have literally been a different species from series to series regardless of makeup.

That much has been inconsistent and changed throughout the franchise it's barely possible to know where to start, but this one instance seems to have caused so much controversy and it's not obvious to me why.

 

[jaime]

But why do people single this particular change out when so man y others are barely even noticed? We've covered the fact they changed visibly at least once before but ever noticed how their behaviour has changed? They have literally been a different species from series to series regardless of makeup.

That much has been inconsistent and changed throughout the franchise it's barely possible to know where to start, but this one instance seems to have caused so much controversy and it's not obvious to me why.

Longer run. 79 to 2002 or whenever ENT ended, covering a period of what...200 years? Every episode of TNG had Worf, half of DS9....then there’s the Klingon centric arcs covering their civil wars, wars in general, politics, religious beliefs, afterlife, wedding ceremonies, judiciary and penal services...oh and cuisine.
There’s basically Naf all left to cover, which makes them an odd choice to deep dive in a new prime series. Thanks to DSC Though we have now seen their market and embassies on qo’nos.
I don’t even like the damn Klingons and yet know all this about them. That’s more than we know about humans in the same century.

 

[fireproof78]

That much has been inconsistent and changed throughout the franchise it's barely possible to know where to start, but this one instance seems to have caused so much controversy and it's not obvious to me why.

My observations have largely been that is a change to something that was already accepted. So, it isn't that it hadn't changed before. It's just that fan opinion had set, and the appearance had become accepted, making change, well, unacceptable.

The other side being the argument that it was "change for the sake of change." Which, ok, fair enough. Most artistic endeavors do so. Any justification given will vary as to whether or not individuals are receptive to it. In my opinion, they wanted to make Klingons more alien. For me, it worked. Just like TMP wanted to do.

 

[Jesse1066]

Again, that's not what I said. Pay attention. I said it means I'm not inclined to spend money on it. I'm not throwing out anything. I'm just not buying it. Why is this hard to understand? If it were gifted to me, I wouldn't get rid of it; the person paying for it would already have decided it was worth spending money on.

So if it looked like this, would you buy/watch it?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So if it looked like this, would you buy/watch it?

That was how they envisioned it when the Borg were first conceived. I prefer the raw rough edges of creativity to the bland uniformity of revisionism.

 

[PiotrB]

Every episode of TNG had Worf

Whose forehead appearance changed drastically several times during TNG and later. Worf from last episode and first has completely different forehead and hairline.

 

[jaime]

Whose forehead appearance changed drastically several times during TNG and later. Worf from last episode and first has completely different forehead and hairline.

Actually the base pattern is the same, the rest is just makeup evolution refining the same design. It’s not drastic at all, only if you pasted say far point next to generations would it be drastic to look at. After that he barely changes. This is all down to materials and choice of panty liner or something. He’s still quite obviously the same character...he doesn’t go bald and change eye and skin colour and eat a handful of marbles before arriving at Ds9.

 

[Groppler Zorn]

if you pasted say far point next to generations

I actually had that thought watching “all good things” when it first aired. Worf’s head wasn’t the same as it was in “farpoint” and Picard’s chair didn’t have the flip up panels (that was the most disappointing bit I love that chair - apparently it got stolen?). I just assumed that Klingon head ridges changed as Klingons aged or something.