Klingons appearance - history repeats itself

[jaime]

Worf is a prominent, but isolated, instance of Klingons though. The behavioural norms of the species vary so widely it's at times only the make up which ties one portrayal to another.

Which is absolutely the point. Same reason we get the root beer speech about the federation, and how Picard differs from Janeway and bothe differ from Nechayev. Picard is almost like the Worf of Federation ideals. Nechayev is it’s Martok...and admiral B5 guest star is it’s Gowron.

 

[Spot261]

Which is absolutely the point. Same reason we get the root beer speech about the federation, and how Picard differs from Janeway and bothe differ from Nechayev. Picard is almost like the Worf of Federation ideals. Nechayev is it’s Martok...and admiral B5 guest star is it’s Gowron.

No, because I'm not comparing Worf to other Klingons, we know that much, I'm comparing other Klingons to themselves. Those portrayals a so inconsistent as to make the make up changes look almost unnoticeable by comparison.

 

[jaime]

No, because I'm not comparing Worf to other Klingons, we know that much, I'm comparing other Klingons to themselves. Those portrayals a so inconsistent as to make the make up changes look almost unnoticeable by comparison.

I’ve never found that to be honest.

 

[Greg Cox]

In fact, you can argue that a certain degree of inconsistency makes the Klingons (or the Romulans or the Vulcans) more believable. Even today, it's not like every human, or even every American thinks and behaves the same, subscribes to same beliefs, actually practices what they preach, etc. One has to allow for a sizable amount of hypocrisy in every culture as well.

In reality, some Klingons are going to be more "honorable" than others, just as some Vulcans are going to be more "logical" than others.

Captain Kirk and Harry Mudd both represent humanity, just as Worf and Duras both represent Klingons.

 

[fireproof78]

And that was accepted by many fans until Deep Space Nine brought 3 popular TOS Klingons and had them have the modern werewolf appearance. Then they went on with the Tribbles-Gump episode and proceeded that as a secret. So, the fans turn pro created an "augment" nonsense to explain everything. After seeing these Klingons from DISCO... which is after the Augment, now what???

Genetic engineering and/or inbreeding among the Great Houses. Simple.

 

[Spot261]

In fact, you can argue that a certain degree of inconsistency makes the Klingons (or the Romulans or the Vulcans) more believable. Even today, it's not like every human, or even every American thinks and behaves the same, subscribes to same beliefs, actually practices what they preach, etc. One has to allow for a sizable amount of hypocrisy in every culture as well.

In reality, some Klingons are going to be more "honorable" than others, just as some Vulcans are going to be more "logical" than others.

Captain Kirk and Harry Mudd both represent humanity, just as Worf and Duras both represent Klingons.

That would work if it didn't seem convenient how iterations would each present Klingons individually and not with an inconsistent set of collective characteristics.

TOS, sneaky bullying Klingons, generic dishonourable antatgonists
TNG "Heart of Glory" religious fanatics
Later TNG Politically motivated players of power games
DS9 Honourable space vikings
ENT Quasi piratical raiders
DSC Back to the religious fanatics/isolationists/racial purists

 

[Greg Cox]

Yet even in TOS, you got plenty of variation among individuals. Kang was kinda the prototype for the gruff, honorable warrior popularized by later Treks, whereas the guy in "Friday's Child" was a cowardly weasel. Kor (as seen on TOS) was a cynical pragmatist who saw the occasional massacre as an unfortunate necessity when it came to imposing order on occupied territories. Koloth was an urbane smoothie who preferred spies and sabotage to combat.

As for TNG, I don't recall "Heart of Glory" well, but that was just a handful of Klingons on one ship, right? Wouldn't be hard to find plenty of isolated groups and communities of religious fanatics in most any city in the world today. Maybe that was just a particularly fanatical batch of Klingons?

From where I'm sitting now, there's a Jewish temple on the corner and a Baptist church one block over. And that's just in one neighborhood in one town in one state in one country on one planet. Have to assume that the Klingon Empire is at least as diverse as, say, Brooklyn.

 

[Spot261]

Yet even in TOS, you got plenty of variation among individuals. Kang was kinda the prototype for the gruff, honorable warrior popularized by later Treks, whereas the guy in "Friday's Child" was a cowardly weasel. Kor (as seen on TOS) was a cynical pragmatist who saw the occasional massacre as an unfortunate necessity when it came to imposing order on occupied territories. Koloth was an urbane smoothie who preferred spies and sabotage to combat.

As for TNG, I don't recall "Heart of Glory" well, but that was just a handful of Klingons, right? Wouldn't be hard to find plenty of groups and communities of religious fanatics in most city in the world today. Maybe that was just a particularly fanatical batch of Klingons?

From where I'm sitting now, there's a Jewish temple on the corner and a Baptist church one block over. And that's just in one neighborhood in one town in one state in one country on one planet. Have to assume that the Klingon Empire is at least as diverse as, say, Brooklyn.

True, but my point is there were patterns over time, there were cultural shifts within the creative team about how Klingons were portrayed much as there have been changes in the make up. It would seem very strange for that to be the case if we were simply seeing random fluctuation in personality types.

If we can accept a constant flux in the psychology of a species, why get so heated up over the prosthetics?

 

[lawman]

Dunno... seems to me that when you're talking about humans, individuals or groups who behave differently from one another are a lot easier to explain than ones who look like they evolved as a different species. Seems like similar logic would apply to Klingons.

 

[Greg Cox]

If we can accept a constant flux in the psychology of a species, why get so heated up over the prosthetics?

Oh, I agree with you there. The new makeups don't bother me at all.

Just saying that a lot of apparent "inconsistencies" in the depiction of Klingons over the decades can be chalked up to cultural variations amongst the Klingons themselves, as well as changing trends in parts of Klingon society over the course of generations. Lord knows that say, the role of women in the real world has evolved over the last century, so it stands to reason that Klingon culture would not be static either.

I tend to resist the idea that our favorite alien cultures need to be portrayed as 100% homogenous or "consistent." Deviations are not always mistakes, but just proof that Klingons can be varied as humans are.

 

[DaveyNY]

Good one, sir. You totally Rick-rolled me. Probably the best use of Rick-roll I've seen in years.

He shouldda used this one though...

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[fireproof78]

I tend to resist the idea that our favorite alien cultures need to be portrayed as 100% homogenous or "consistent." Deviations are not always mistakes, but just proof that Klingons can be varied as humans are.

It is also far, far, more realistic for that variety to exist in phenotype and cultural designs. I feel the same way about the look of Klingons as I do their ships. That is, a space faring empire is bound to have more than one ship design.

 

[Kor]

It always seemed to me that the honor-spouting Klingons of later TNG and DS9 were an extension of the "Heart of Glory" depiction. But those were supposed to be a fanatical splinter group, not representative of all Klingons!

Kor

 

[Refuge]

These Discovery Klingons have a 'lead in' relevance though... of ten years. They need to fit.

 

[fireproof78]

These Discovery Klingons have a 'lead in' relevance though... of ten years. They need to fit.

Ten years is a long time. Plenty of time to "fit."

 

[Refuge]

Ten years is a long time. Plenty of time to "fit."

You are right. It's all part of the magical tapestry of fiction (I'll be keeping an eye on it ).

 

[fireproof78]

You are right. It's all part of the magical tapestry of fiction (I'll be keeping an eye on it ).

 

[Refuge]

Funny

 

[Tuskin38]

Saw this on reddit, make up designer seems to imply the Klingon look will be explained?

https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/8n4hqp/lead_discovery_makeup_designer_glenn_hetrick_says/

And according to this, they will be exploring more Klingon houses in Season 2

https://trekmovie.com/2018/05/29/st...tease-new-and-reimagined-aliens-for-season-2/

When you look at beloved Klingons from TOS and Next Gen and the movie series, and the way the look evolves, the one thing that always bothered me is their wardrobe is almost always the same. The look is almost always unified. So, that is one of our biggest goals. If you think about the cultural patina that is the human species that is on this planet for a relatively short amount of time and how different our cultures look … the Klingon Empire, having of course not all grown up on Qo’noS but all these different planets, the Houses would look incredibly different. And we are really just starting, wait until you see season two. We are really just starting down that road and there is so much more we have developed that hasn’t been unpacked yet.

 

[fireproof78]

When you look at beloved Klingons from TOS and Next Gen and the movie series, and the way the look evolves, the one thing that always bothered me is their wardrobe is almost always the same. The look is almost always unified. So, that is one of our biggest goals. If you think about the cultural patina that is the human species that is on this planet for a relatively short amount of time and how different our cultures look … the Klingon Empire, having of course not all grown up on Qo’noS but all these different planets, the Houses would look incredibly different. And we are really just starting, wait until you see season two. We are really just starting down that road and there is so much more we have developed that hasn’t been unpacked yet.

I want to give this person a hug. This is my overall point. Klingons should not be monolithic. Humanity isn't monolithic, Earth isn't monolithic, why is every culture in science fiction a monolith?