Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x14 - "The War Without, The War Within"

[SolarisOne]

In the book Control it says section 31 was created by a computer programme called URAEI.

Maybe they'll make Uraei canonical some day.

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

A good episode the jumped the shark at the end like Fonzi with warp engines duck taped to his bike

 

[ralfy]

6/10 because the writing's still awful, from characters that lack common sense (e.g., Michael's weird decisions) to a main arc that appears to go nowhere and makes no sense as well (they're almost losing the war, then almost winning the war, and now almost losing it). There are more but they don't need to be mentioned because they span several episodes.

 

[guyute03]

Gave this one an 8 because of the Ash stuff. Otherwise it would have just been average for me, a 7. Really felt like a "Part 1" of a two-parter and that kinda sucked. Next week looks way better.

Spoiler: Spoilers

- per Saru - status of Terran defector, Georgiou, is CLASSIFIED, penalty of Treason
- Burnham refuses to see Ash Tyler
- really nice to see Ash back, even though he's actually Voq. hope he stays
- Sarek mind melds Saru
- Cornwell vaporizes Lorca's fortune coookies lol
- Cornwell saw the ISS Discovery destroyed 9 months ago
- Starfleet has the cloak info now, has lost 1/3 of its fleet
- Briefing Room is awesome
- Klingons seized "Starbase 1"
- Federation & Starfleet seem pretty f***ed right now
- Mirror Georgiou is way more interesting than her prime counterpart
- going to attack "Kronos", force Klingons to retreat there to protect
- Kronos is unexplored to the Federation
- episode feels like a "part 1"
- visual effects continue to impress
- Discovery first crew to visit Kronos since Archer & Enterprise

 

[Turtletrekker]

TBH, the lack of Lorca has really diminished my interest in the rest of this.

I liked Lorca, but I didn't miss him this week at all.

Maybe this is why Section 31 is created, so that morons aren't in charge when the shit hits the fan.

Section 31 dates all the way back to Archer's time.

 

[Noname Given]

I gave this one an 8.

Overall I thought it was actually quite good; except for what a few others have noted like:

- The map and the way they talk about the situation; they act like the Klingons occupy more of the Federation then they actually do. (Tey stated the Feds lost 20% of their territory, so yeah, bad, but hardly catastrophic.)

- The distances involved are VERY small scale - IE the Discovery about one light year out from the Sol system and the main Starbase 100 AUs away from Earth - yet occupied fully by Klingons and 80.000 staff dead or captured? (Also, does the VFX team bother to read the script because yeas, if it's 100 AUs out - there shouldn't be an Earth like planet beneath it. Who's checking/okaying the VFX studios work/checking it against script continuity? (makes me wonder IF the writers intended the D7 that captured Lorca early i the series to BE/LOOK like a TOS D7 - but no one's really looking at the delivered VFX with a critical/consistent eye.)

- The U.S.S. Discovery (if they can get the Spore supply replenished) is going to Spore Jump INTO A CAVERN BENEATH Q'NOS??!! <<<---- WTF is this writing team smoking?

I like a lot of the other stuff and character moments, and when MU Captain Georgiou (err, I ,mean PU Georgiou, rescued from a Klingon prison camp --- Hey! A Star fleet Admiral said it, so it MUST be true... ) walked on deck, I'm SAD we only have one episode left for this season. You'd think they'd have plotted this out better so the end of the war doesn't feel tacked on. Past episode 4, we've really seen nothing of any Klingon Politics (Yeah, we saw Kol and his ship one more time in Ep. 9 but yeah, where's all the 'insight into Klingon society' that this season was supposed to have?

But yeah, I wish we had at least two more actual episodes with MU Georgiou in command and to 'wrap up' the war arc.

 

[Cyrus]

So they keep the whole Terran thing secret because they don’t want people knowing about alternate versions of themselves. That’s okay I guess but what makes Kirk’s visit any different? They tell everyone after that. All it took was one line to Bashir from Kira and he knew instantly where they were.

It's whatever the story/script needs. Kirk certainly didn't know about the mirror universe, so Discovery writers have to make this classified to stay consistent with the TOS episode. The DS9 episode needed the DS9 characters to know about Kirk and MU so they can explain to the audience why the Terran Empire was overthrown.

Why? MU Lorca in command of Discovery was almost single handedly willing the war for the Federation with judicious use of the Spore Drive. Starfleet is desperate. As Sarek stated in the episode: "Starfleet tactics aren't working..."

Makes sense!

 

[Amaris]

I gave this one an 8.

Overall I thought it was actually quite good; except for what a few others have noted like:

- The map and the way they talk about the situation; they act like the Klingons occupy more of the Federation then they actually do. (Tey stated the Feds lost 20% of their territory, so yeah, bad, but hardly catastrophic.)

- The distances involved are VERY small scale - IE the Discovery about one light year out from the Sol system and the main Starbase 100 AUs away from Earth - yet occupied fully by Klingons and 80.000 staff dead or captured? (Also, does the VFX team bother to read the script because yeas, if it's 100 AUs out - there shouldn't be an Earth like planet beneath it. Who's checking/okaying the VFX studios work/checking it against script continuity? (makes me wonder IF the writers intended the D7 that captured Lorca early i the series to BE/LOOK like a TOS D7 - but no one's really looking at the delivered VFX with a critical/consistent eye.)

- The U.S.S. Discovery (if they can get the Spore supply replenished) is going to Spore Jump INTO A CAVERN BENEATH Q'NOS??!! <<<---- WTF is this writing team smoking?

I like a lot of the other stuff and character moments, and when MU Captain Georgiou (err, I ,mean PU Georgiou, rescued from a Klingon prison camp --- Hey! A Star fleet Admiral said it, so it MUST be true... ) walked on deck, I'm SAD we only have one episode left for this season. You'd think they'd have plotted this out better so the end of the war doesn't feel tacked on. Past episode 4, we've really seen nothing of any Klingon Politics (Yeah, we saw Kol and his ship one more time in Ep. 9 but yeah, where's all the 'insight into Klingon society' that this season was supposed to have?

But yeah, I wish we had at least two more actual episodes with MU Georgiou in command and to 'wrap up' the war arc.

They also said they lost 1/3 of the fleet in one fell swoop, so they don’t have to occupy more than the 20% they have in order to bring the Federation to its knees.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Okay, I'm not reading 15 pages of this shit! Ugh. (J/K)

a few points before I give it a grade.

1) I sure hope Sarek mindmelded with Emperor Georgiou before they handed her the ship and mission hand over fist. Yikes. Still, I'm just very glad to see Michelle Yeoh back where she belongs.
2) So every time stuff gets boring, they'll either bring back Voq, or maybe Prime Lorca will be back.
3) I'm really hoping they get done with the war arc sooner than later. I'm about ready for DISCO to do some classic Trek think-pieces! Come on, writers, give us a slow think-piece... if not that, at least a bottle episode where a character grows through interaction, not action.
4) So now we've got a pretty multi-ethnic/gendered crew running the ship. This is me being happy

All in all, it's still enjoyable even when it's missing an essential Trekness. Gave it an 8.

According to the showrunners the war is done next episode, which I'm happy for. To be honest it felt like the writers were not entirely invested in the war arc themselves. The idea seemed to be Fuller's baby and the current showrunners got stuck with it. The only clue we've gotten about the direction next season is that it will explore 'spirituality vs science'. So i'm guessing we'll be getting some strange new worlds in season 2.

 

[Noname Given]

They also said they lost 1/3 of the fleet in one fell swoop, so they don’t have to occupy more than the 20% they have in order to bring the Federation to its knees.

True, but now the Feds have a way to nullify the Klingon cloaking tech - so again, 66% of the Fleet remains (now with the ability to shoot back) and 80% territory remaining (regardless of the Earth situation. The Feds have 4 founding Homeworlds, Earth, Vulcan, Andor/Adoria and Tellar) - so again, bad; but not all that dire.

According to the showrunners the war is done next episode, which thankfully I'm happy for. To be honest it felt like the writers were not entirely invested in the war arc themselves. The idea seemed to be Fuller's baby and the current showrunners got stuck with it. The only clue we've gotten about the direction next season is that it will explore 'spirituality vs science'. So i'm guessing we'll be getting some strange new worlds in season 2.

I HOPE we DON'T get some 'God-like' beings that the Federation defeats with 'science' and just some bad existential BS in between. I started to really dislike nuBSG2003 when it became the existential Cylon show (I'm sure the stage hands and studio heads counting the production costs loved the 'one hot-tub'/empty room Cylon 'sets'. )

 

[XCV330]

I hope next episode shows that for once a Starfleet Admiral whose name doesnt rhyme with Jerk isn't dumber than a bag of hammers.

She gave the Empress of the Terran Empire the keys to the only vehicle that can put her back in her own universe and start taking back over again. Were there any controls put in place at all?

 

[MvRojo]

I still don’t get why the Emperor has to be captain? I don’t see any self respect Starfleet officer allowing that to happen.

I assume whatever she told Sarek convinced him that she needed to have a more active role in the mission, and having her pretending to be the real Georgiou might be easier than trying to convince the crew to follow the evil emperor.

 

[MvRojo]

I wish they stopped overusing the transporters. Ship-to-ship beaming is supposed to be very risky. They could have just escorted the Emperor to her quarters.
Also, where did Sarek beam to? Weren’t they at warp?

Saru had her beamed to avoid anyone seeing her.

I thought the same thing about Sarek. Unless his ship was traveling along side the Discovery or something.

 

[Noname Given]

I hope next episode shows that for once a Starfleet Admiral whose name doesnt rhyme with Jerk isn't dumber than a bag of hammers.

She gave the Empress of the Terran Empire the keys to the only vehicle that can put her back in her own universe and start taking back over again. Were there any controls put in place at all?

- Could it get her back to the MU? Yes.

- Would it help her re-take the Terran Empire? Probably not.

Hell, the MU I.S.S. Discovery was destroyed by PU Klingons. The Federation U.S.S. Discovery (assuming the crew who don't realize her actual origins would still follow her orders) probably wouldn't fair well against the Terran Empire Fleet - and while said Fleet will probably be fighting for leadership; the one thing they'd probably gang up on was a ship Commanded by the former Empress who LOST her 'Palace Ship'.

I thought the same thing about Sarek. Unless his ship was traveling along side the Discovery or something.

From the dialogue I assumed they dropped Sarek back off at Vulcan before heading out to the moon they were going to Terraform.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I HOPE we DON'T get some 'God-like' beings that the Federation defeats with 'science' and just some bad existential BS in between. I started to really dislike nuBSG2003 when it became the existential Cylon show (I'm sure the stage hands and studio heads counting the production costs loved the 'one hot-tub'/empty room Cylon 'sets'. )

I hear Culber will be showing up in a slinky red dress and a blonde wig and tell stamets about the tardigrade's plan for him.

Also, the spore that landed on Tillys shoulder will turn her into a human/fungi hybrid who will be able to jump the ship with her mind however she will need to do this by sitting in a tub of KY whilst rambling nonsense.

 

[lab rat]

..... snip .....

- The distances involved are VERY small scale - IE the Discovery about one light year out from the Sol system and the main Starbase 100 AUs away from Earth - yet occupied fully by Klingons and 80.000 staff dead or captured? (Also, does the VFX team bother to read the script because yeas, if it's 100 AUs out - there shouldn't be an Earth like planet beneath it. Who's checking/okaying the VFX studios work/checking it against script continuity? (makes me wonder IF the writers intended the D7 that captured Lorca early i the series to BE/LOOK like a TOS D7 - but no one's really looking at the delivered VFX with a critical/consistent eye.)
..... snip .....

The writers have shown many times they have no concept as to astronomical concepts such as AU, Light Year and all that other stupid geek stuff. To them that is stuff that loser geek nerds read about in science class. Those enlightened in the liberal arts don't want to mess with that science crap.

 

[Amaris]

True, but now the Feds have a way to nullify the Klingon cloaking tech - so again, 66% of the Fleet remains (now with the ability to shoot back) and 80% territory remaining (regardless of the Earth situation. The Feds have 4 founding Homeworlds, Earth, Vulcan, Andor/Adoria and Tellar) - so again, bad; but not all that dire.

True, during the meeting, Starfleet brass said that since Discovery had returned, they'd disseminated that knowledge to the other Starfleet vessels, but it was immediately followed up with the statement that they felt it might have already been too late. We're only seeing bits and pieces, so we don't know the full scale of the Klingon assault.

 

[Enterprise1701]

In my head I treat DIS as the "klingon skinhead" phase, where some dumb religious numbnuts took over the Empire on a populist, nativist plattform (lol), put waaaay too much ressources and effort into redesigning their starship so they match older, more intricate designs, and gone into total isolation, only to fall into internal turmoil on their way to become great again. I know, not really realistic...

If this series ends with the Quch-Ha overthrowing the Hem'Quch, then I will cheer for joy.

 

[Midquest]

So I've seen this discussed briefly elsewhere, but did this episode just use the Ash storyline to obliquely discuss (an analogy for one kind of) trans experience? Because if so, that's pretty exciting.

The language used in the early scenes--talk of how Ash "presents," of "species reassignment," clearly echo some of the language with which people sometimes discuss transitioning. There's no way that's accidental. It also does interesting things to the story as a whole. Ash is forced against his will (presumably) to inhabit a body/mind that doesn't align with his preferred, felt identity. He is now in a position where his human identity resides in a body altered to more closely meet his self-perception, but this clearly wasn't done with his best interests in mind; he's been used and abused by a society, and is clearly struggling with questions, anxieties, and insecurities about himself and who he is. There's clearly deep trauma about his experience. And here we get scenes of acceptance, of the crew gathering to almost literally embrace him, which seems tell a story about species identity that analogizes to discussions of gender.

I really like it, though I don't know if the analogy works directly (especially given the brutality of his transition from Klingon to human). I guess I can't speak directly to the issues seemingly discussed here. I'd be curious to hear perspectives.

 

[lawman]

Comments!...

[re: Klingons] 2017 makeup/designs. Boom. Explained.

First of all, the poster was clearly referring to an in-universe explanation of the new Klingon designs, not a real-world explanation.

Second, even as a real-world explanation, this falls short, since saying the designs were done in 2017 doesn't in any way mean they're better than previous Klingons makeup, costumes, or ships. (IMHO they're godawful.) In fact, it doesn't even mean they needed changing — certainly the Vulcans, Andorians, etc. look very much the same. What's wrong with "don't fix what ain't broken"?

Because good writers don't just magically hatch from an egg. They have to get experience. How do you think people like Brannon Braga, Ronald D. Moore and Brian Fuller got their big breaks?...

I like your basic point, and I approve of a show bringing new writers up through the ranks... but I'm puzzled by your examples, since you mentioned good writers. IMHO the first two out of three there hardly qualify!...

Did they explain how the spores repopulated so quickly? That made that whole panic kind of pointless, didn't it?

No, they did not. That was a pretty major plot point to be completely handwaved away — why wouldn't growing a new supply take months, at least? More than one person has already commented that the high-speed terraforming reminded them of the Genesis project, but that was cutting-edge highly classified experimental tech an entire generation later!...

And, yeah, I wish we could've seen Captain Killy and the ISS Discovery.

Me too. Lots of us have mentioned over the past month that the MU Discovery's activities in the prime universe had to be one of the most interesting stories of the whole arc, just waiting to be told... and now we're expected to make do with having it unceremoniously destroyed off-screen with a single line of dialogue?

[The reference to Archer] puts a crotch on the novels since I’m sure they’ve had other people go to Qo’noS there.

Between ENT and TOS? Are you sure? Only a small handful of novels have even been set in that time frame. Which one(s) are you thinking of?

It’s war, and she’s a warrior. They need someone who knows how to fight the Klingons,

That's completely specious reasoning. First of all, there's more than one kind of warrior, and there's nothing about her experience to suggest she's the kind who's compatible with the UFP. Second, the only Klingons she "knows how to fight" are from the Mirror Universe, and could quite plausibly be just as culturally different from PU Klingons as the Terran Empire itself is from the UFP.

Can the Federation punish her for acts she committed in her own universe? That seems like it would SERIOUSLY break the prime directive. I don't feel like you can hold people from other realities accountable to your morals until they are commiting those crimes in your universe.

The Federation wouldn’t have jurisdiction on crimes she committed in another universe.

I don't think they could apply Federation laws to what happened in the MU.

They can send her down the rabbit hole if they want---but until she breaks Federation law in their own universe, they have zero jurisdiction to actually try her.

I am genuinely puzzled to see so many people keep making these kinds of assumptions. It was discussed in a different thread the other day, but keeps coming up, so just to put things in perspective...

First of all, the Prime Directive doesn't apply at all. Notwithstanding some of the weird extrapolations from it in the TNG years, it was originally conceived, and certainly applied — especially in the TOS era — as something relevant only to pre-warp civilizations that were unaware of interstellar cultures. (It was, basically, a rule to prevent the UFP from engaging in the kind of exploitative imperialist colonialism that the European powers did when they explored the Americas and the Pacific, to protect developing worlds' right to self-determination.) The Mirror Universe's Terran Empire was very obviously at the same tech level as the UFP, and moreover it would take some hard-core sophistry to argue that it was a culture that had anything whatsoever to do with self-determination.

Second, even more importantly, it's inconceivable that the UFP wouldn't preserve and expand upon the kind of international human rights laws that exist right now, today, on Earth. Those laws already provide for what's known as "universal jurisdiction," whereby (in a nutshell) any properly constituted court under a legitimate government can try and punish the kinds of extreme crimes that too often go unpunished by the home countries of the perpetrators — things like torture, genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes... basically the kind of heinous stuff that makes up Georgiou's entire résumé — no matter where they happened. Repudiating crimes of such gravity is considered more important than arbitrary geographic distinctions. (By way of a real-world example, how do you think Great Britain had authority to arrest former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet in 1998? Or take Saddam Hussein in 2006... technically he was prosecuted by the "Iraqi Interim Government," but that was a paper-thin fig leaf.) The two main stumbling blocks in real life are political will (but unlike many present-day countries, the UFP has that in spades, or at least it should), and the problem of getting physical custody of the defendants, which is why people like Henry Kissinger and Dick Cheney are still walking around free (but the UFP has Georgiou on hand, so again, not a problem).

Long story short, the UFP can and should prosecute Georgiou for all of her unconscionable and probably innumerable crimes. To do otherwise would be outrageous, and seriously undermine the principles we've been told for fifty years that the UFP stands for.

May 11, 2256. The Buran was destroyed "about a month into the war" (if we go exactly a month, that is June 11, 2256. Adding on the 212 days since he disappeared that Lorca mentioned in the prior episode, that is January 9, 2257. Nine months from that is October 9, 2257.

Good reasoning... except what Lorca actually said in the previous episode was "a year and 212 days." Granted it didn't make a helluva lot of sense at the time, so maybe we should just pretend we didn't hear it...

This is my new favorite episode...

* The encounter between Stamets and Tyler was well done. To me, it looked like Paul was fighting hard not to do anything, or step over a line, like he knew this person, Ash, wasn't fully in control when it happened, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that he murdered Paul's husband. I think that was so very well done.

* The scene between Sarek and Michael was well played. I can feel the relationship they have between each other, and I got teary eyed when Sarek said "I love you" in every way except those words. Beautifully done on both counts, in my opinion.

I can't honestly agree with you about the "favorite episode" part, but I agree that this week did have some excellent character moments, and these two in particular were definitely among them.

Genocide? They're mapping Kronos so they can strike military targets. They aren't putting red matter in the planet or anything.

They didn't say they were going to destroy Q'nos outright; (if that were the case, they wouldn't need to scan it.) They said they were going to scan the surface to be able to find and take out every military installation and defense battery on the planet, in the hopes it would cause the various Houses to pull their Fleets back to defend the Home world.

You both seem to be overlooking the implications of Georgiou's subsequent conversation with Sarek, leading to the deal he and Cornwell helped her cut with the Federation. Georgiou made it clear to Sarek that the original plan, as you describe it and as she told it to Burnham (apparently offering her the details off-screen, because if Burnham came up with those on her own how would Georgiou know them?), was all Burnham was "ready to hear," and that the Federation actually needed to do something more severe. What exactly that is remains to be revealed, but it seems clear enough that it's not limited just to military targets.

Um...from TOS - "Court Martial" ... see the highlighted lines (I left the rest for context). Also realize, what is there was indeed an abbreviated list. Where do you think [Kirk] got all those?

I dunno, nothing about them says "war" to me. Starfleet is not first and foremost a military force, after all; I assume that it gives out honors for all kinds of accomplishments. And even if some of Kirk's honors came from combat instead of (say) exploratory or diplomatic or peacekeeping missions, that doesn't mean that combat came about as part of an actual open war (as other TOS episodes amply demonstrate).