Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[SJGardner]

I'm pretty sure all of the mirror Kelpians we saw were played by men.

I remember that way as well... I really hope they won't go with the Phlox route and introduce wacky new anatomical and biological details about his species just to serve as one-off jokes.

 

[Noname Given]

Exactly this. People forget the the precepts of the Prime Directive do not apply to spacefaring races. It's led to much confusion over the years.

^^^
The elevation of the PD to:
"We don't interfere in with Non-Federation member worlds - period."
was a retcon of TNG. In TOS the PD only took effect if TWO things were true of the alien culture:

1 - The culture was primitive/pre-warp.
2. The culture was not aware of life on other worlds or that other space-faring cultures existed.
^^^
If either one of the above wasn't true - the Prime Directive DIDN'T APPLY.

And hell, in TOS, if said culture had resources the Federation needed (Like the Capellans in TOS - "Friday's Child"; or the Halkans in TOS - "Mirror Mirror" - and in both cases said resource was Dilithium Crystal deposits on their planets) - the PD was waived too.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I just think a lot of people are butt hurt because the guy they liked the most turned out to be a racist. Hints were there.

I didn't even like Lorca till halfway through the season, and even then he was never my favorite character. But there is an obvious issue in the writing room when you spend all season pushing a mystery and displaying a character as highly amibiguous, only to have the big reveal, throw all ambiguity out the window, answer almost none of the interesting questions that were raised over the course of the mystery and then immediately kill that character off in a single episode and move the story elsewhere. The pacing is utterly bizarre. If Lorca was supposed to be a throwaway villain who would die in a single episode, they shouldn't have spent all season building him up so much.

 

[SJGardner]

And hell, in TOS, if said culture had resources the Federation needed (Like the Capellans in TOS - "Friday's Child"; or the Halkans in TOS - "Mirror Mirror" - and in both cases said resource was Dilithium Crystal deposits on their planets) - the PD was waived too.

I've always figured 'Federation Protectorates' were basically a legal fiction to provide exemption from the Prime Directive on planets of strategic importance to the Federation.

 

[Noname Given]

It's serialized insofar as each episode follows from the last. The question is more if it is really telling a cohesive story. People have already been joking after the two-part pilot which seemed to be a prologue, that episodes 3-9 seemed like yet another prologue before the "real story" got started. Now it might be the case that the entire season was effectively a prologue to whatever they do next. It's just an odd way to do a narrative arc.

From a character perspective (particularly for Burham) there is a more credible case that an "arc" is taking place. But what is it? Burnham gets her groove back? Happened already by Episode 9, which offered good narrative closure of open threads from the prologue. If anything Burnham's character regressed in the Mirror Universe.

It's a redemption arc - she's redeeming herself from the initial betrayal of her Captain, which she feels lead to said Captain's death; and it's still ongoing.

There's also an arc of her finding her humanity and emotionallity after being raised on Vulcan for so long. That arc started with her emotional decision to mutiny (done in her eyes to save the ship and PREVENT what ultimately happened; and then with her emotional reaction to kill T'Kuvma because T'Kuvma killed her Captain and surrogate mother figure. That's also still ongoing because her decision to 'save' MU Gergiou was emotional and not logical.

Next week ...

^^^
What Saru says:

Saru: "Greetings Empress..."

What the Emperor hears:

Saru: "Mooooooooooooo!..."

 

[eschaton]

It's a redemption arc - she's redeeming herself from the initial betrayal of her Captain, which she feels lead to said Captain's death; and it's still ongoing.

There's also an arc of her finding her humanity and emotionallity after being raised on Vulcan for so long. That arc started with her emotional decision to mutiny (done in her eyes to save the ship and PREVENT what ultimately happened; and then with her emotional reaction to kill T'Kuvma because T'Kuvma killed her Captain and surrogate mother figure. That's also still ongoing because her decision to 'save' MU Gergiou was emotional and not logical.

Again, I agree, but...the problem is this is as I noted we pretty much hit "redemption" properly with Episode 9. Burnham killed Kol, helped blow up the Ship of the Dead, and got her former captain's badge back. She was also already acting pretty much like a normal human being. I think it was done well (best episode of the season) and I didn't think there was much more to be said about her through this angle.

Being exposed to MU Georgiou essentially regressed her character. You can of course argue that having a setback building to a second climax is for the better, but it also feels sort of like stalling to me. That they didn't know what to do next, so they decided to create drama to have her flail around for longer.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^
The elevation of the PD to:
"We don't interfere in with Non-Federation member worlds - period."
was a retcon of TNG. In TOS the PD only took effect if TWO things were true of the alien culture:

1 - The culture was primitive/pre-warp.
2. The culture was not aware of life on other worlds or that other space-faring cultures existed.
^^^
If either one of the above wasn't true - the Prime Directive DIDN'T APPLY.

And hell, in TOS, if said culture had resources the Federation needed (Like the Capellans in TOS - "Friday's Child"; or the Halkans in TOS - "Mirror Mirror" - and in both cases said resource was Dilithium Crystal deposits on their planets) - the PD was waived too.

What really bamboozled me was Kirk's "friend" Tyree in "A Private Little War" who seemed to be from a culture barely out of the Bronze Age, yet had full knowledge of the Federation AND Klingons and was serving as a proxy world for their "Cold War". Then there was the odd dual culture in "Omega Glory" that Captain Tracey was exploiting, and the Enterprise crew visited, without hiding their uniforms, weapons or any other aspects of advanced civilizations, the poor misguided Vaul-followers in "The Apple", and the list goes on. Scores of pre-warp cultures had plenty of a-priori knowledge of spacefaring empires. Then there were the other places that seemed to have no real problem with it, like in "A Piece of the Action", "Return of the Archons", "Bread and Circuses", etc. And those were just the places we were actually shown. The amount of "cultural contamination" throughout the galaxy seems endless.

 

[Noname Given]

What really bamboozled me was Kirk's "friend" Tyree in "A Private Little War" who seemed to be from a culture barely out of the Bronze Age, yet had full knowledge of the Federation AND Klingons and was serving as a proxy world for their "Cold War". Then there was the odd dual culture in "Omega Glory" that Captain Tracey was exploiting, and the Enterprise crew visited, without hiding their uniforms, weapons or any other aspects of advanced civilizations, the poor misguided Vaul-followers in "The Apple", and the list goes on. Scores of pre-warp cultures had plenty of a-priori knowledge of spacefaring empires. Then there were the other places that seemed to have no real problem with it, like in "A Piece of the Action", "Return of the Archons", "Bread and Circuses", etc. And those were just the places we were actually shown. The amount of "cultural contamination" throughout the galaxy seems endless.

True, but in many of the episodes you mention said contamination was either accidental or done before said PD was adopted by Earth/The Federation; and Kirk and Co. either were assigned, or decided to try and 'clean it up' - or in the case of "A Private Little War" Lt. Kirk was assigned to do "The Planetary Survey" (which obviously involved letting some indigenous lifeform know Kirk was 'a visitor' and that he was there to observe, etc.)

But yeah, 'previous violation of the PD' was often the basis for a TOS episode.

 

[Vger23]

I didn't even like Lorca till halfway through the season, and even then he was never my favorite character. But there is an obvious issue in the writing room when you spend all season pushing a mystery and displaying a character as highly amibiguous, only to have the big reveal, throw all ambiguity out the window, answer almost none of the interesting questions that were raised over the course of the mystery and then immediately kill that character off in a single episode and move the story elsewhere. The pacing is utterly bizarre. If Lorca was supposed to be a throwaway villain who would die in a single episode, they shouldn't have spent all season building him up so much.

I don't know if anyone would argue this. The series creator and architect of the season-long arc left the show earlier in its development, after having committed a certain path to CBS. What remained were a bunch of folks who were somewhat obligated to carry out the creative vision and arc of another person who was no longer there to guide and oversee from a creative standpoint.

All things considered, I think the writing team did an admirable job under the circumstances. Despite some unevenness and some slop, it's been wildly entertaining.

 

[Noname Given]

I don't know if anyone would argue this. The series creator and architect of the season-long arc left the show earlier in its development, after having committed a certain path to CBS. What remained were a bunch of folks who were somewhat obligated to carry out the creative vision and arc of another person who was no longer there to guide and oversee from a creative standpoint.

All things considered, I think the writing team did an admirable job under the circumstances. Despite some unevenness and some slop, it's been wildly entertaining.

^^^
But, I thought one of the people who co-plotted the arc and show direction personally and in conjunction with Bryan Fuller when he made the pitch was still with the Production Team on the show - and that the 3 episodes that comprised teh full 'pilot' story were still fully written by Fuller and those scripts used?

 

[137th Gebirg]

I think a lot changed after he left, which is why production got delayed by several months. IIRC, there was even an early concept where this was to be an anthology show, much like American Horror Story, where each season would show a different ship, at a different time in the Federation's history, which the show named after that ship for that season, with the first being Discovery. I'm assuming that was taken off the table as early as it was pitched.

 

[cooleddie74]

What really bamboozled me was Kirk's "friend" Tyree in "A Private Little War" who seemed to be from a culture barely out of the Bronze Age, yet had full knowledge of the Federation AND Klingons and was serving as a proxy world for their "Cold War". Then there was the odd dual culture in "Omega Glory" that Captain Tracey was exploiting, and the Enterprise crew visited, without hiding their uniforms, weapons or any other aspects of advanced civilizations, the poor misguided Vaul-followers in "The Apple", and the list goes on. Scores of pre-warp cultures had plenty of a-priori knowledge of spacefaring empires. Then there were the other places that seemed to have no real problem with it, like in "A Piece of the Action", "Return of the Archons", "Bread and Circuses", etc. And those were just the places we were actually shown. The amount of "cultural contamination" throughout the galaxy seems endless.

The Prime Directive was obviously selectively enforced during the mid-23rd century as evidenced by Kirk's repeated flounting of General Order 1 almost at whim. Had Picard or Sisko violated the Prime Directive even a quarter as often as Kirk did they'd have been stripped of their command and relegated to cleaning waste recycling tanks at Starfleet Academy. I still chuckle when Kirk says that Starfleet is going to send cultural observers or technicians to help Miri's friends on her planet after the Enterprise finds a cure for the disease ravaging that world. This is a planet that even the episode states has at most a mid-20th century level of technology and has been all but decimated by a deadly illness that kills off all adults, yet the Federation is willing to send observers with access to advanced technology and scientific information to guide a planet that is probably nowhere close to inventing warp drive or even interplanetary space travel.

 

[Noname Given]

I think a lot changed after he left, which is why production got delayed by several months. IIRC, there was even an early concept where this was to be an anthology show, much like American Horror Story, where each season would show a different ship, at a different time in the Federation's history, which the show named after that ship for that season, with the first being Discovery. I'm assuming that was taken off the table as early as it was pitched.

^^^
I remember that - but even Fuller admitted that aspect was nixed by CBS before they even approved his main pitch (IE - Hey let's see how your 1 season story idea goes over with audiences before we commit to basically a new show from the ground up every subsequent season.") - So it's not like Fuller did more than float that idea to witch TPTB at CBS said "No - it's not going to be an anthology".

As for the delays, I thought it was all due to giving more time for:
- Proper set design for an HD production

- More time to find produce the VFX needed (since CBS idea to do it in house started and then fell through for whatever reason.)

Basically, I don't think it was strictly because they didn't have an idea of what they were going to do, it was more that Bryan Fuller was spending more time/energy on "American Gods" production and wasn't there to answer questions or provide a showrunner decision to questions the ST: D pre-production staff had <--- And that was the real reason CBS fired him.

 

[Vger23]

^^^
But, I thought one of the people who co-plotted the arc and show direction personally and in conjunction with Bryan Fuller when he made the pitch was still with the Production Team on the show - and that the 3 episodes that comprised teh full 'pilot' story were still fully written by Fuller and those scripts used?

There was only one other person who co-plotted the arc (I don't think he had nearly as much influence / say) and that was Kurtzman. And Kurtzman doesn't really seem that involved in the writer's room from what I can see. That seems to be Ted Sullivan with Berg and Harberts.

I'm not making excuses, and I'm not saying that's the sole reason for some of the unevenness...I'm just saying my opinion is that it is a big contributor.

 

[Refuge]

I didn't even like Lorca till halfway through the season, and even then he was never my favorite character. But there is an obvious issue in the writing room when you spend all season pushing a mystery and displaying a character as highly amibiguous, only to have the big reveal, throw all ambiguity out the window, answer almost none of the interesting questions that were raised over the course of the mystery and then immediately kill that character off in a single episode and move the story elsewhere. The pacing is utterly bizarre. If Lorca was supposed to be a throwaway villain who would die in a single episode, they shouldn't have spent all season building him up so much.

That is a fair examination of reaction to Lorca. Truth is the isolationist politics and parallels I don't take personally so having him embody such ethic is not what disappoints. He didn't go down in my estimation for more character flaws. He went down because he was rewritten or badly written and it came over as misdirection.

 

[Zod]

I thought you were making a point. But then.....

Yeah every point that was made goes out the window with the SJW nonsense. The author of that post doesn't like that the lead is a black woman? Too fucking bad. Honestly I just don't get it.

As for the episode I loved it. I am saddened though at how easily Lorca died. I also didn't like turning him into a cookie cutter villain. I liked the complicated Lorca we had come to know. I had come to give him some grudging respect also over the course of the season. A flawed captain? Sign me up. Now he's gone. Well at least for now.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Potential Captains:
- Saru - lacks self-confidence, has a biological tendency towards cowardice, tried to kill a couple officers on Pahvo.
- Admiral Cornwell - possibly psychologically scarred, might end up being a crazy TOS character, seemed to be okay with using a Vulcan ambassador to force-meld with people in the trailer
- Michael Burnham - too many flaws to mention, especially for such a perfect never-do-wrong character. Not sure why she'd be in the running at this point
- Emperor Georgiou - no flaws there. She is technically the most decorated Starfleet captain available (if you go by Burnham's crazy belief in mirror parity)
- Cadet Tilly - she might be a tad inexperienced

All the names here are full of flaws (although, really only Saru and Cornwell are likely. Airiam could potentially jump to CO if Saru is taken out). Another probability is a new character introduced as a Captain (Spoeneman who only was heard in the MU is my bet). In that case, probably not until Season 2.

Although I'm not a fan of the idea of a new Captain every season.

 

[Uhura's Song]

The hints were there that he was from the MU, but not "Mwa-ha-ha! I'm actually more evil than Evil!Georgiou!"
Kind of like how Dukat became a mustache-twirling villain at the end of DS9, except that was over the course of about 13 episodes, not 1.5 episodes.

He didn't BECOME anything. He just finally dropped the facade & was himself.

I mean, what did you think being from the MU meant?

Lorca left Mudd in Klingon hands. Lorca intentionally put USS Discovery to the MU, thus risking the Federation losing the war to pursue his vengeance. He, possibly, sent Cornwell into a trap & then refused to help her so he could preserve his command.

He was always a d!ck.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Lorca left Mudd in Klingon hands.

Oh yeah, like Mudd didn't deserve it?

srsly, while there are many examples of MU Lorca being a dick...that's not one of them. There literally was no reason NOT to leave Mudd behind. Taking him along would be an unacceptable risk, given how obviously unreliable Mudd was, and how LIKELY he was to turn on Lorca and sell him out to the Klingons (as the time loop episode would later prove).

 

[Push The Button]

That was dealt with last week - the Defiant was a red herring as if Discovery used the same technique to get home, they'd go insane and murder each other. And end up in the past.

Definitely a couple of hanging threads with ISS Disco and the Lorca/Burnham counterparts. I can't believe they're simply dead...

Unless they had a supply of Old Doc McCoy's Theragen moonshine to keep them chilled out and sane.