Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"

[guyute03]

Looping the Mirror U eps, there's a distinct seperation in them. First, the Terran Empire which subjugates all it can in the Alpha/Beta quadrants and then the post-Terran empire time... where Humans are subjugated galaxy-wide and forced to wear big badges depicting the western hemisphere of Earth.

 

[Jesse1066]

Now I'm wondering if the Romulans exist in the Mirror U. I can't remember ever seeing or hearing of them there.

In "Through the Looking Glass," Prime Sisko told mirror Jennifer that he was going to meet with the Romulans to get their help against the Klingon-Cardassian alliance. She knew he was lying, but she gave no indication that the Romulans didn't exist. If they didn't exist, I suppose it's possible she just assumed they were a minor species she wasn't familiar with.

 

[Prax]

The Defiant cannot travel back to the prime universe. It doesn't have a spore drive.

Speaking of which...

What would be easier? Redressing the entire Discovery like a M.U. ship, everything, even down to the plaque, boarding the Mirror Shenzhou, killing the captain, torturing Lorca(to be convincing), and who knows what else...

-Or-

Injecting Burnham or Tilly, or whoever's willing(not Ash! He won't work) with the Tartegrade DNA, and spore jump the hell outta there, ASAP! Seriously, can't they just leave?!

 

[Tuskin38]

Injecting Burnham or Tilly, or whoever's willing(not Ash! He won't work) with the Tartegrade DNA, and spore jump the hell outta there, ASAP! Seriously, can't they just leave?!

They don't know how it happened.

And after what the drive did to Paul they probably don't want to put anyone else through it.

 

[Prax]

Tilly's first order of business as pretend captain should be to go into those spore jumping logs.

They're probably looking through them right now.

 

[cooleddie74]

Now I'm wondering if the Romulans exist in the Mirror U. I can't remember ever seeing or hearing of them there.

For all we know the Romulans were one of the first targets of the Terran Empire after it gained warp capability. By hitting the Star Empire in, say, the early 22nd century they could have conquered or eradicated a rival for power in the quadrant. In the Mirror Universe the Romulans may have been a conquered or isolated species this entire time and never posed a threat to anybody else after making first contact with Terrans. If humans treated the Vulcans like second- or third-class citizens there's no telling how badly they treated a species with aggressive, expansionist tendencies just as bad if not worse than their own.

 

[WisTrekFan]

"Despite Yourself" was great! "Captain" Tilly rocks. I've been laughing all week about her line, "I would cut out your tongue and use it to lick my boots."

 

[jaime]

Doesn't work like that, no timeline changes made to the main universe will effect the Mirror universe.

That’s not true. Any change made to the Defiant before it goes back in the Tholian web will impact the Mirror universe, as that’s where it ends up in the past. That’s what everyone is talking about with the potential loop and if the DSC crew use it to come Home in any way. The entire previous episode is about getting to the Info on the Defiant. If Prime Starfleet pulls it out of harms way, the DSC crew would not have any impetus for this story and would need another way home.

 

[jaime]

No, the Defiant would not degrade. It's not trapped in a loop.

After the ship is transported to the Mirror Universe (and back in time), pretty much anything can happen to it after that. It's not like the ship has to survive into the 23rd century in order to be sent back in time again, because it's a different version of the ship that gets sent back.

Think of it this way:

- Sometime in the 23rd century, the Defiant is constructed.
- The ship is commissioned and begins its normal Starfleet service record (mentioned by Saru in a throwaway line in "Despite Yourself")
- Shortly before the events of "The Tholian Web", the Defiant becomes trapped in interphasic space.
- Sometime AFTER that episode, it disappears and ends up in the 22nd century of the Mirror Universe.
- Whatever happens to the Defiant after that, is pretty much irrelevant, because the ORIGINAL Defiant will one day be built in the regular universe's 23rd century.

The thrust of the gist is, the "old" ship doesn't have to survive long enough to become its own original counterpart, because a brand new Defiant will one day be built - that's what always happens. There is a loop, yes, but it's not the same ship that gets used over and over again. The Defiant is built, gets sent back in time, probably serves for awhile in the MU, is destroyed and never seen again, and (decades later, in the Regular Universe) its original "self" is built which will later have all those things happen to it, etc. etc.

To rephrase: If you travel back in time - far enough back so that you arrive before you are born - obviously you don't become your own younger self. Your "old self" may die, but your younger self is destined to be born, because that's what history records. Same goes for the Defiant.

The loop people are proposing is if the Defiant is brought back from th MU and is commissioned by Starfleet, thereby becoming the Defiant that goes back (ignoring the original Defiant or proposing it is destroyed or replaced before fulfilling its destiny.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The loop people are proposing is if the Defiant is brought back from th MU and is commissioned by Starfleet, thereby becoming the Defiant that goes back

But that's not going to happen. There's literally no reason why it would. There's already a Defiant in the RU, it doesn't need a replacement.

 

[jaime]

No, the Defiant would not degrade. It's not trapped in a loop.

After the ship is transported to the Mirror Universe (and back in time), pretty much anything can happen to it after that. It's not like the ship has to survive into the 23rd century in order to be sent back in time again, because it's a different version of the ship that gets sent back.

Think of it this way:

- Sometime in the 23rd century, the Defiant is constructed.
- The ship is commissioned and begins its normal Starfleet service record (mentioned by Saru in a throwaway line in "Despite Yourself")
- Shortly before the events of "The Tholian Web", the Defiant becomes trapped in interphasic space.
- Sometime AFTER that episode, it disappears and ends up in the 22nd century of the Mirror Universe.
- Whatever happens to the Defiant after that, is pretty much irrelevant, because the ORIGINAL Defiant will one day be built in the regular universe's 23rd century.

The thrust of the gist is, the "old" ship doesn't have to survive long enough to become its own original counterpart, because a brand new Defiant will one day be built - that's what always happens. There is a loop, yes, but it's not the same ship that gets used over and over again. The Defiant is built, gets sent back in time, probably serves for awhile in the MU, is destroyed and never seen again, and (decades later, in the Regular Universe) its original "self" is built which will later have all those things happen to it, etc. etc.

To rephrase: If you travel back in time - far enough back so that you arrive before you are born - obviously you don't become your own younger self. Your "old self" may die, but your younger self is destined to be born, because that's what history records. Same goes for the Defiant.

Just to play with your example...if you went back a day in time, and your younger self was killed, you, one day older could take his place and therefore not die. However, you still have to go back in time one day, to preserve the loop. You would therefore be living that one day over and over after the loop began...your only option is to prevent the death, or keep going back in time. the original chain of events (where you didn’t die and made the first trip) would have been erased after kickstarting the loop, and if you can’t prevent that death and need to replace, you can’t escape the loop without dying. If you do, you also end up with two of you running around...unless you send one of you back to ensure the death is prevented. Now..which one of you goes back? Logically it has to be the fresh one each time, but the loop is still there like a little knot.
That’s sort of what is being proposed here. It’s an easy to break loop...don’t decommission the returned Defiant, don’t let it replace its younger self in the timeline, but...if the reason for recommissioning it is the destruction of the original, or an attempt to preserve it, then you still have to find another way, or create the loop. Any attempt to ‘save’ the original has to still lead to the chain of events that brings the Defiant back...otherwise the loop begins again.
But it’s not likely to happen, because there’s currently no need for the old Defiant to take the place of its younger self.

Now..if you are stuck in a loop of replacing your younger self, do you age?

It’s part of what’s being done with Mudd in magic.

 

[jaime]

But that's not going to happen. There's literally no reason why it would.

That’s right. But people provided a hypothetical where it did.

 

[Moonboots]

The emperor has to be Philipa. Who else would have an impact on both the characters and viewers?

My first thought was that the emperor might be mirror Stamets.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

My first thought was that the emperor might be mirror Stamets.

My first thoughts was admiral booty call.

 

[Scout101]

Why would Starfleet recommission the Defiant and just throw it out there? Makes no sense. It also won't survive many loops; it's 150 or so years old after one loop. If it gets back to our universe, thrown into the past of the mirror universe again, repeat, it'll eventually just be dust. Or get destroyed somewhere along the line in one of the universes. Not sustainable, in addition to not making much sense.

 

[Albinator]

The Defiant cannot travel back to the prime universe. It doesn't have a spore drive.

Speaking of which...

What would be easier? Redressing the entire Discovery like a M.U. ship, everything, even down to the plaque, boarding the Mirror Shenzhou, killing the captain, torturing Lorca(to be convincing), and who knows what else...

-Or-

Injecting Burnham or Tilly, or whoever's willing(not Ash! He won't work) with the Tartegrade DNA, and spore jump the hell outta there, ASAP! Seriously, can't they just leave?!

Yes, they can just leave, which is why I wonder if Lorca has something up his sleeve, and an ulterior motive for getting the Defiant-- based what we saw in "In a Mirror Darkly," The Defiant could be the Empress' flagship, so he may want to go there to try and assassinate her (again).

All this is predicated on the assumption that he is really Mirror Lorca, of course, which he may not be, but "all signs point to yes" on that one.

In this scenario, he's only pretending that he doesn't know how to get home, only pretending that he needs the Defiant to get back to the Prime Universe, to convince the crew of the Discovery to help him get to the Defiant. He may very well have gone to the Prime Universe on purpose, perhaps to escape the Empress during his last assassination attempt.

 

[Albinator]

Why would Starfleet recommission the Defiant and just throw it out there? Makes no sense. It also won't survive many loops; it's 150 or so years old after one loop. If it gets back to our universe, thrown into the past of the mirror universe again, repeat, it'll eventually just be dust. Or get destroyed somewhere along the line in one of the universes. Not sustainable, in addition to not making much sense.

Well that's not what's happening, so it doesn't matter. Lorca never suggested taking the Defiant back with them, I believe his actual line is "we can find out how they made it over, it could be our ticket home." Basically, whatever happened to the Defiant, if they can figure it out, they could try to recreate with the Discovery.

The funny thing is, if you weren't familiar with Trek lore, that scene must have been eye-rollingly groan worthy: "there just happens to be another ship from their universe -- from their future no less, with more advanced technology-- in this mirror universe, that they can use to find a way home?" Must have seemed like an awfully convenient Dues Ex Machine.

 

[Kevman7987]

The funny thing is, if you weren't familiar with Trek lore, that scene must have been eye-rollingly groan worthy: "there just happens to be another ship from their universe -- from their future no less, with more advanced technology-- in this mirror universe, that they can use to find a way home?" Must have seemed like an awfully convenient Dues Ex Machine.

Those clever Star Trek writers, setting all this up in a different show 50+ years ago. Talk about a long-con...

 

[cultcross]

Defiant wouldn't be that futuristic from Discovery's perspective - the Connies predate her launch.

 

[137th Gebirg]

It is possible that Defiant was slightly more advanced than most Connie's (hence the existence of an aft torpedo launcher where the Enterprise had none), having a later registry number (NCC-1764). Later shows have definitely played fast and loose with registry numbers, but TOS, where that particular one originally came from, may have actually taken a chronological building order into account.