News Martin-Green: Star Trek And Diversity

[Awesome Possum]

It's fine if you don't "need" it, but the audience in their millions probably includes people who do. Representation is about more than dragging the lumpen populace by the nose to certain conclusions, it's about giving voice to people who haven't had opportunities to use the megaphone of popular media. I don't "need" Star Trek to inculcate me in the notion that LGBT people can have meaningful relationships, but if I were a gay teenager and my particular corner of the world didn't have a lot of out gay people who could serve as examples, the relationship between Stamets and Culber could give a powerful message about the possibilities open to me that I might not be getting from my teachers, my peers, or my parents.

With Star Trek, it means that someone thinks that people like you have a place in the future. One where you are valued and treated as an equal. Some of us don’t have that in the present. We live with fear and uncertainty because certain political parties decided to make our existence and rights are a political issue and up for debate. That may not mean much to some people, but they know they have nothing to fear. Their future isn’t in doubt and at the whim of politicians and religious hate groups.

When I see the majority complaining about diversity, I just see a glutton complaining about a starving person asking for a bite.

 

[gblews]

That would be great. Someone posted a thread here not too long ago about the lack of diversity among nationalities. I thought it was a fair criticism. Starfleet is not only supposed to represent all of the Federation but all of Earth as well. It is perhaps, an unfortunate trait of humans that we tend to be more interested in viewing shows and movies that have at least some actors who look like us physically or cultrurally, but it is what it is.

IDIC, yall, regardless of the reasons.

It is not at all unfortunate that people from the LGBT-community and racial and ethnic minorities of a given country would wish to be represented in fiction.

Actually, it is unfortunate but probably not in the way that you might think it is. That part of my post about a "trait of humans", is probably not quite accurate, it just seems that way because petty prejudices and bias' seem to show up so early in so many of us. But I don't believe we are really "born" with these characteristics. It is something that is learned, but learned from a very young age -- all of us, unfortunately.

In America, those prejudices have kept most movie and TV productions with mostly white, male, straight, casts. That's because the folks in charge of production for the most part are made up of the aforementioned group. And they have thought that in order to make money, the characters, particularly the "heroic' and "good" characters, have to look like the mainstream.

It is because of these prejudices that that LGBTQ kid, or racial minority, or woman, longs to see people who are like them in media productions -- because these people (and many others), have been ignored historically. If minorities had grown up seeing themselves portrayed regularly and not always in a negative light on TV and in movies, there would likely be no outcry or longing for representation.

So it is unfortunate, (especially in America), that people outside of the mainstream have to "want" to see media productions with people who are like like them physically and culturally, rather than it be the norm. If we could all look past the superficial (race, sexual orientation, gender, "beauty", social caste, etc) and just see ourselves, as well as others, as simply humans, perhaps we wouldn't feel a need to see people who look like "us" in TV and movie productions. Also, because, without prejudice, they would already be there. But that would be a "perfect world" and that is not where we live.

 

[Fateor]

How is it a "straw man argument" if she quoted you directly comparing being transgender to having a birth defect, one which you said the Federation would have eliminated? Nor did she say anything about preventing trans people from getting SRS, so ironically the only straw man was your own.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent

The first post the person in question tried to claim "I thought minorities should be purged" when I never said that thus making their statement a Strawman.

The second post said person went on a rant on pronunciation and then in error tried to claim X wasn't allowed. The last bit very much being a straw man because it didn't actually refute the point just gave the false impression of doing so.

The third post they tried to claim that having a birth defect equated to calling someone not human. While again acting as if that answer refuted the points when it only gave the false impression of doing so and was an attempt to indirectly attack my character so they could ignore my point and try to claim moral high ground.

If in the future Possum wants to actually debate like an adult instead of bringing up fallacy after fallacy in some false attempt to paint me as "sexist" or "mansplaining" then they're welcome to do so. However till then the two of us obviously have nothing more to discuss.

 

[Awesome Possum]

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent

Which is what you did.

The first post the person in question tried to claim "I thought minorities should be purged" when I never said that thus making their statement a Strawman.

You said we would be cured in the future. Like we’re a disease. I was also exaggerating your pitiful post, that is not a straw man.

The second post said person went on a rant on pronunciation and then in error tried to claim X wasn't allowed. The last bit very much being a straw man because it didn't actually refute the point just gave the false impression of doing so.

I corrected your grammar. That’s also not a straw man.

The third post they tried to claim that having a birth defect equated to calling someone not human. While again acting as if that answer refuted the points when it only gave the false impression of doing so and was an attempt to indirectly attack my character so they could ignore my point and try to claim moral high ground.

You said that people like me would be fixed in the future. All because you don’t want to see us on Star Trek.

If in the future Possum wants to actually debate like an adult instead of bringing up fallacy after fallacy in some false attempt to paint me as "sexist" or "mansplaining" then they're welcome to do so. However till then the two of us obviously have nothing more to discuss.

You didn’t post a single coherent thought. Then you lost your shit because I corrected you. Far from “adult” behavior, not that insults from whining children bother me.

I also consider your use of “person” and treating me like a child demeaning. I’m a grown woman and I’ll continue to school your ass for as long as it takes.

 

[ralfy]

That would be great. Someone posted a thread here not too long ago about the lack of diversity among nationalities. I thought it was a fair criticism. Starfleet is not only supposed to represent all of the Federation but all of Earth as well. It is a perhaps unfortunate trait of humans that we tend to be more interested in viewing shows and movies that have at least some actors who look like us physically or cultrurally, but it is what it is.

IDIC, yall, regardless of the reasons.

FWIW, it may involve more than just diversity in nationality. I imagine multinational companies involving Asian nationals (especially Chinese) becoming majority investors in these shows, and as markets in BRICS and emerging economies grow, retooling them for such markets. That might involve using languages other than English, stories that emphasize the need for collective thought or team work and respect for elders, etc.

 

[gblews]

FWIW, it may involve more than just diversity in nationality. I imagine multinational companies involving Asian nationals (especially Chinese) becoming majority investors in these shows, and as markets in BRICS and emerging economies grow, retooling them for such markets. (snip) stories that emphasize the need for collective thought or team work and respect for elders, etc

Utterly ridiculous. Where do you get this stuff?

That might involve using languages other than English,

Okay, you might be on to something here. Kirk was right, you can't trust Klingons.

 

[Satron]

Actually, it is unfortunate but probably not in the way that you might think it is. That part of my post about a "trait of humans", is probably not quite accurate, it just seems that way because petty prejudices and bias' seem to show up so early in so many of us. But I don't believe we are really "born" with these characteristics. It is something that is learned, but learned from a very young age -- all of us, unfortunately.

In America, those prejudices have kept most movie and TV productions with mostly white, male, straight, casts. That's because the folks in charge of production for the most part are made up of the aforementioned group. And they have thought that in order to make money, the characters, particularly the "heroic' and "good" characters, have to look like the mainstream.

It is because of these prejudices that that LGBTQ kid, or racial minority, or woman, longs to see people who are like them in media productions -- because these people (and many others), have been ignored historically. If minorities had grown up seeing themselves portrayed regularly and not always in a negative light on TV and in movies, there would likely be no outcry or longing for representation.

So it is unfortunate, (especially in America), that people outside of the mainstream have to "want" to see media productions with people who are like like them physically and culturally, rather than it be the norm. If we could all look past the superficial (race, sexual orientation, gender, "beauty", social caste, etc) and just see ourselves, as well as others, as simply humans, perhaps we wouldn't feel a need to see people who look like "us" in TV and movie productions. Also, because, without prejudice, they would already be there. But that would be a "perfect world" and that is not where we live.

To play devil's advocate for a moment. How many characters should your given series or movie have to adequately represent the mentioned groups? Once you have decided on the make-up of your cast of characters, does the cast of actors and actresses who portray these characters have to share their character's identities? Can only writers who share those identities write for these characters? Can negative things happen to these characters, or do they have to be shielded to avoid criticism?

I pulled the devil's advocate card, because I find it very hard to disagree with your post, and I don't want to disagree with it. That being said, I also understand that we'll never get this "perfect world" as far as representation in fiction is concerned. It is impossible to properly and adequately represent every group that our world is made up of in one single show. We can see in regard to Disco and the conversations about diversity in it here that there are those who feel "deeply insulted" when they don't get to see the kind of diversity they'd wish to see. Creators can only fail, or so is would look like.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

To play devil's advocate for a moment. How many characters should your given series or movie have to adequately represent the mentioned groups? Once you have decided on the make-up of your cast of characters, does the cast of actors and actresses who portray these characters have to share their character's identities? Can only writers who share those identities write for these characters? Can negative things happen to these characters, or do they have to be shielded to avoid criticism?

I pulled the devil's advocate card, because I find it very hard to disagree with your post, and I don't want to disagree with it. That being said, I also understand that we'll never get this "perfect world" as far as representation in fiction is concerned. It is impossible to properly and adequately represent every group that our world is made up of in one single show. We can see in regard to Disco and the conversations about diversity in it here that there are those who feel "deeply insulted" when they don't get to see the kind of diversity they'd wish to see. Creators can only fail, or so is would look like.

You're looking at it completely wrong. You don't need that kind of diversity in a single show. You need each single show to make a clear effort at a reasonable amount of diversity (preferrably in various different combinations) so that the whole spectrum of shows together can steadily approach the ideal.

 

[{ Emilia }]

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent

The first post the person in question tried to claim "I thought minorities should be purged" when I never said that thus making their statement a Strawman.

The second post said person went on a rant on pronunciation and then in error tried to claim X wasn't allowed. The last bit very much being a straw man because it didn't actually refute the point just gave the false impression of doing so.

The third post they tried to claim that having a birth defect equated to calling someone not human. While again acting as if that answer refuted the points when it only gave the false impression of doing so and was an attempt to indirectly attack my character so they could ignore my point and try to claim moral high ground.

If in the future Possum wants to actually debate like an adult instead of bringing up fallacy after fallacy in some false attempt to paint me as "sexist" or "mansplaining" then they're welcome to do so. However till then the two of us obviously have nothing more to discuss.

If you have a problem with a poster, contact a mod via PM or hit the report button. Do not post about it in thread and insult them (claiming they're not debating like an adult).
In addition to that, when a mod hands out an infraction and says "COMMENTS TO PM", you do not reply in thread because that is a clear instruction not to drag this out in thread.

In theory this would warrant two infractions, I'll only give you one because I'm being nice.

Infraction for failing to comply with mod instructions and for flaming. Comments to PM.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Far from “adult” behavior, not that insults from whining children bother me.

I know that his posts have been insulting but I'd ask you not to rise to the baiting, as hard as it is to read that stuff. When you see something like this, please report it and let us deal with it.
Insulting him in return is not ok, you know that.

 

[ErikB]

With Star Trek, it means that someone thinks that people like you have a place in the future.

I genuinely don't know how the modern left could make it any more clear there is no place for straight white men in the future they are building.

I mean, you *literally have signs up*

 

[Satron]

You're looking at it completely wrong. You don't need that kind of diversity in a single show. You need each single show to make a clear effort at a reasonable amount of diversity (preferrably in various different combinations) so that the whole spectrum of shows together can steadily approach the ideal.

That is what Disco is doing.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I genuinely don't know how the modern left could make it any more clear there is no place for straight white men in the future they are building.

I mean, you *literally have signs up*

Yes, when are straight white men finally going to catch a break? It's shocking that we've only been represented by 43 & 1/2 out of 44 Presidents of the United States. Keep up the struggle!

I love that one person puts up a sign on a bathroom door for a meme which is no doubt in direct response to the completely manufactured for political gain "threat" of transgender people preying on women and children in bathrooms, and suddenly it represents a concerted effort by the left to get rid of straight white men, as if that was even possible or a real thing. Never underestimate the right's ability to completely fabricate or grossly exaggerate an issue to motivate their base, actually oppress a minority in the process, and then portray themselves as the true victims of oppression when they receive any kind of pushback or criticism in response, all while ironically calling the opposing side snowflakes or SJWs or politically correct.

Also, you joined in 2013 and only posted three innocuous messages, but then wait four years to jump back into the fray with a single "straight white men of the world unite!" post? Let's just say my mod Spidey-sense is tingling.

 

[BillJ]

I genuinely don't know how the modern left could make it any more clear there is no place for straight white men in the future they are building.

I'm a white male and part of the modern left. Making sure everyone has a place and equal treatment, doesn't mean there isn't a place for me.

 

[ErikB]

Let's just say my mod Spidey-sense is tingling.

What can I say. I fully recognise I am not welcome in your world and have no place in the future you are building.

Look, genuinely, where can straight white men go in the modern world where they won't be viewed by the institution as at best an embarrassment or at world a problem to be dealt with.

Where can they, I, go where they, we, will be welcomed?

Because, and I mean this with absolute honesty, I strongly suspect there are a lot of white men who, like me, are looking for somewhere like that.

--

Incidentally I am not an alt account or anything else. I probably signed up when the Abrams movies came out.

 

[BillJ]

Because, and I mean this with absolute honesty, I strongly suspect there are a lot of white men who, like me, are looking for somewhere like that.

They aren't. They are looking for someplace where white men rule everything. Where gays are back in the closet, women keep their mouths shut about harassment and stay in the kitchen, and black people are treated like second-class citizens with their own separate drinking fountains, restrooms and schools.

World's changing, either change with it or be marginalized.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

What can I say. I fully recognise I am not welcome in your world and have no place in the future you are building.

Well, since I'm a straight white man and haven't kicked myself out of the house yet, much less exiled myself from the world...

Look, genuinely, where can straight white men go in the modern world where they won't be viewed by the institution as at best an embarrassment or at world a problem to be dealt with.

Where can they, I, go where they, we, will be welcomed?

I don't know, like almost everywhere? I get welcomed at most places I go to, as do most of the sociable straight white men I know. Nor have I heard of any concerted movement to bar them from public spaces. Maybe the problem is you and your attitude and worldview?

Because, and I mean this with absolute honesty, I strongly suspect there are a lot of white men who, like me, are looking for somewhere like that.

A compound in rural Idaho is usually a safe bet.

 

[indranee]

I've been an avid sci fi fan and gamer who believes there needs to be more representation and diversity in all types of entertainment media.

I never knew I needed a female superhero movie like Wonder Woman until I saw it and found myself crying when she went over the trenches to try to save the village, feeling a deep sense of recognition and pride. Representation matters, especially if it's positive in ways which have not been seen regularly before. I also can't wait to see Black Panther when it comes out in Feb. I have a feeling this too will resonate hugely with audiences previously uncatered for.

As someone who dabbles in writing (for my own pleasure), I think it's a hugely useful exercise to examine one's own biases and defaults from a narrative perspective.

The concept of something being 'forced' in terms of inclusion can only work if everyone agrees on what the defaults should normally be. Once one realizes why brave hyper competent white cis males have usually dominated as the default heroes in our entertainment media, how can one support the continuance of that particular over-used trope in this day and age?

It's time for many more voices to be heard, many more stories & perspectives to be shared and many more role models to be found.

To those who ask why a main character or *gasp* main protagonist has to be gay, or black or female, or differently abled, or neural atypical, I would ask "why the hell not?"

Emphasis mine. Just wanted to say how much I liked your post.

 

[ErikB]

They aren't. They are looking for someplace where white men rule everything. Where gays are back in the closet, women keep their mouths shut about harassment and stay in the kitchen, and black people are treated like second-class citizens with their own separate drinking fountains, restrooms and schools.

World's changing, either change with it or be marginalized.

I feel so welcome and assured there is a place in the future for people like me now.

--

Are you sure they White Devils are not just looking for a place they can exist where it isn't fairly apparent The Powers That Be regard them less as people than as a portal through which all evil enters the world?

People are all the same. Some times you wanna go... where everybody knows your name. And their always glad you came...

 

[ErikB]

A compound in rural Idaho is usually a safe bet.

I dunno man. Setting up a compound in rural Idaho is pretty much the definition of being seen as problem that needs to be dealt with.