News Martin-Green: Star Trek And Diversity

[Satron]

A trans person's identity could be worked into a story organically and other stories have done it. It also doesn't need to have anything to do with how they are born since it's only cis people who are obsessed with any changes or what they were like at birth. Most trans people prefer to not refer to how they were before because many find it be a traumatic experience and it brings up painful memories. The quickest way to piss off a trans person is to ask about surgeries, their genitals or how they were born a man or woman. Transition is a brief period in their lives and doesn't really need to ever come up. But given the media's obsession with it, it's all that the general public seems to understand since it's an alien experience. For trans people, they were always the gender they identify as. But no one believed them. Saying "birth gender" is a meaningless phrase since we were already born our correct gender, only our body and people's view of us was wrong.

Also pretending a character is trans without any mention of it is still erasure since until we hear otherwise everyone just assumes they're cis. You might as well say Lorca could be a Cylon since he hasn't said he wasn't a Cylon. It's idiotic and insulting. "Look they could be trans. But we don't want to ever mention it because we have some bullshit explanation based on it being in the future." Imagine if Geordi didn't have the VISOR and we were never told he was blind or that Data was an android since he looked and behaved like any other human. We'd lose a lot of stories.

Just because you can't understand how to do a story doesn't make it impossible. Because I can think of several possibilities.

We also didn't know that Kirk had a brother until we were told. Or that he was a father until we saw his son. We also didn't know that the Spock had two siblings and a quasi-adoptive sister until we we've been told. Did you know that Chief O'Brien was afraid of spiders when you first saw him in Encounter at Farpoint? A fictional character can be and become anything.

 

[Jinn]

We also didn't know that Kirk had a brother until we were told. Or that he was a father until we saw his son. We also didn't know that the Spock had two siblings and a quasi-adoptive sister until we we've been told. Did you know that Chief O'Brien was afraid of spiders when you first saw him in Encounter at Farpoint?

And yet it would be unreasonable to assume that Kirk had a brother before “Operation — Annihilate“, a son before the Sar Trek movies and that O‘Brien was aftaid of spiders before whenever we learned that.

A fictional character can be and become anything.

They can be become anything, but as of yet they aren‘t.

 

[Awesome Possum]

We also didn't know that Kirk had a brother until we were told. Or that he was a father until we saw his son. We also didn't know that the Spock had two siblings and a quasi-adoptive sister until we we've been told. Did you know that Chief O'Brien was afraid of spiders when you first saw him in Encounter at Farpoint? A fictional character can be and become anything.

What’s the point if they never mention it? It robs everything of meaning.

 

[Satron]

What’s the point if they never mention it? It robs everything of meaning.

The point is to leave enough room for writers to develop a character further in an ongoing series.

 

[Four Lights]

Sonequa is a class act all round. Articulate, fluent and comes across as such a nice person. I'm glad she's now associated with Star Trek.

 

[Awesome Possum]

The point is to leave enough room for writers to develop a character further in an ongoing series.

Sounds like bad storytelling to me and deeply insulting to any group who lacks representation. “Here’s the tech to tech the tech. Oh by the way I’m bisexual, thought you should know. Oh no Klingons!”

 

[Fateor]

A trans person's identity could be worked into a story organically and other stories have done it. It also doesn't need to have anything to do with how they are born since it's only cis people who are obsessed with any changes or what they were like at birth. Most trans people prefer to not refer to how they were before because many find it be a traumatic experience and it brings up painful memories. The quickest way to piss off a trans person is to ask about surgeries, their genitals or how they were born a man or woman. Transition is a brief period in their lives and doesn't really need to ever come up. But given the media's obsession with it, it's all that the general public seems to understand since it's an alien experience. For trans people, they were always the gender they identify as. But no one believed them. Saying "birth gender" is a meaningless phrase since we were already born our correct gender, only our body and people's view of us was wrong.

Also pretending a character is trans without any mention of it is still erasure since until we hear otherwise everyone just assumes they're cis. You might as well say Lorca could be a Cylon since he hasn't said he wasn't a Cylon. It's idiotic and insulting. "Look they could be trans. But we don't want to ever mention it because we have some bullshit explanation based on it being in the future." Imagine if Geordi didn't have the VISOR and we were never told he was blind or that Data was an android since he looked and behaved like any other human. We'd lose a lot of stories.

Just because you can't understand how to do a story doesn't make it impossible. Because I can think of several possibilities.

That doesn't really work unless you ignore the realities of the setting.

Because with the Federation's medical technology, even at the original series level, the problem would be discovered and corrected either before or shortly after birth. Meaning with a realistic portrayal there would be no traumatic experiences, identity problems, or any detectable differences period from your statistically average person.

 

[Awesome Possum]

That doesn't really work unless you ignore the realities of the setting.

Because with the Federation's medical technology, even at the original series level, the problem would be discovered and corrected either before or shortly after birth. Meaning with a realistic portrayal there would be no traumatic experiences, identity problems, or any detectable differences period from your statistically average person.

The medical technology of the Federation does not exist. Writers can have it do whatever they want to justify a story. Claiming they “cured it” is a cop out and terrible excuse to justify erasing a minority because some fans clearly never want to see any on the show. They haven’t cured baldness or blindness, but they’ve “fixed” part of the spectrum of humanity. Are there any other minority you think has been purged?

This is not an issue with writing, it’s an issue with some of the fans. Ones who have clearly failed to learn some of the shows most important messages.

 

[Fateor]

The medical technology of the Federation does not exist. Writers can have it do whatever they want to justify a story. Claiming they “cured it” is a cop out and terrible excuse to justify erasing a minority because some fans clearly never want to see any on the show. They haven’t cured baldness or blindness, but they’ve “fixed” part of the spectrum of humanity. Are there any other minority you think has been purged?

I guess in your world transgendered people shouldn't be allowed to get SRS either because doing so purges them as a minority.

Good thing this isn't your world.

Because for the Federation detecting the brain body mismatch when in still in the womb is simple, we know they have the tech, and have since at least Archers time. And fixing that mismatch? It's as simple for them as flipping a chromosomal switch so the body's sex matches what the brain thinks it should be. Something we also know they have been able to do since well, the Eugenics Wars.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I guess in your world transgendered people shouldn't be allowed to get SRS either because doing so purges them as a minority.

Good thing this isn't your world.

Because for the Federation detecting the brain body mismatch when in still in the womb is simple, we know they have the tech, and have since at least Archers time. And fixing that mismatch? It's as simple for them as flipping a chromosomal switch so the body's sex matches what the brain thinks it should be. Something we also know they have been able to do since well, the Eugenics Wars.

First, it's transgender people. Not "transgendered", it's not something that happened to us. Also having SRS still makes a trans person trans. They aren't suddenly cis because of an operation. I don't think you know as much about trans people as you think you do.

Also genetic engineering is illegal according to Star Trek, because of the Eugenics Wars. Maybe you should learn more about Star Trek too while you're at it.

 

[Fateor]

First, it's transgender people. Not "transgendered", it's not something that happened to us. Also having SRS still makes a trans person trans. They aren't suddenly cis because of an operation. I don't think you know as much about trans people as you think you do.

Also genetic engineering is illegal according to Star Trek, because of the Eugenics Wars. Maybe you should learn more about Star Trek too while you're at it.

Wrong, unauthorized genetic enhancement is illegal.

Using genetic engineering to fix birth defects and genetic diseases on the other hand is very specifically legal. As is Federation authorized genetic enhancement.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Wrong, unauthorized genetic enhancement is illegal.

Using genetic engineering to fix birth defects and genetic diseases on the other hand is very specifically legal. As is Federation authorized genetic enhancement.

Being trans is not a birth defect, we're human beings with feelings.

 

[Fateor]

Being trans is not a birth defect, we're human beings with feelings.

If all you are going to do is straw man maybe you should just bow out now, because so far you are 3 for 3 in your responses to me, and 3 strikes are all you get before I call you out for it.

Because here's the thing little one, you are so deep into your straw man at this point that you are arguing that trans shouldn't be allowed to get SRS because it erases them as a minority and that having a birth defect makes a person not human. And neither of those things are hills you want to die on given how insulting they are to the people in question.

 

[Awesome Possum]

If all you are going to do is straw man maybe you should just bow out now, because so far you are 3 for 3 in your responses to me, and 3 strikes are all you get before I call you out for it.

Pathetic.

Because here's the thing little one, you are so deep into your straw man at this point that you are arguing that trans shouldn't be allowed to get SRS because it erases them as a minority and that having a birth defect makes a person not human. And neither of those things are hills you want to die on given how insulting they are to the people in question.

One, calling me "little one" is demeaning. So let's add probable sexist to your list of issues.

Two, I don't think you know what a straw man is. It certainly isn't what I'm arguing. I imagine you just learned that phrase and think it's an instant win card. It isn't, you need to point it out.

Three, where did I say that trans people shouldn't be allowed to have SRS? Your grasp of English is either incredibly poor or you're just making shit up to justify you're continued ignorance. I said the following.

Also having SRS still makes a trans person trans. They aren't suddenly cis because of an operation.

These are facts, we can put them in a science book. Where is the erasure? Where is the insult? Unless you think trans itself is an insult. Since you think it should be "cured", perhaps you do. What do you think it means?

Four, you're the one arguing to erase an minority. You posted this.

Because with the Federation's medical technology, even at the original series level, the problem would be discovered and corrected either before or shortly after birth. Meaning with a realistic portrayal there would be no traumatic experiences, identity problems, or any detectable differences period from your statistically average person.

What's the problem? That we exist? Or you just don't ever want to see a trans person on your space show with lasers and space aliens because you don't think it would be realistic. You have any clue how absurd, moronic and insulting that is? Yeah, you can accept Andorians, warp travel, time travel, aliens with infinite god-like powers. But a trans person on the show is just a step too far.

But bravo for trying to shift the blame to me. Luckily, I've been on this board long enough to see hundreds of posters try the same thing to make up for their lack of an argument. It's literally "no you!", the same argument toddlers make and quickly grow out of.

Five, I'm actually trans. One of the few on this board and I constantly see why the few who have shown up tend to leave after a while.

Six, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about and you're trying to mansplain something to someone who is far more familiar with it than you can possibly know. But I keep you to keep trying to educate me by dismissing me and claiming I said the exact opposite of what I posted.

But yeah, I'm done with you. I'd rather have an actual intelligent discussion and I'm not finding one here.

 

[Satron]

Sounds like bad storytelling to me and deeply insulting to any group who lacks representation. “Here’s the tech to tech the tech. Oh by the way I’m bisexual, thought you should know. Oh no Klingons!”

Representation to reflect the current US-society? That of Earth? Or that of the Federation? There is something seriously wrong with anyone who feels deeply insulted by fiction not showing what they'd like to see.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Representation to reflect the current US-society? That of Earth? Or that of the Federation? There is something seriously wrong with anyone who feels deeply insulted by fiction not showing what they'd like to see.

I think there’s something worse with anyone who argues against it. You’re upset because you don’t want to see certain groups. I want more stories with new possibilities opened up by having people who are rarely represented. You want to limit it because you already have what you want like a spoiled child.

 

[Satron]

If all you are going to do is straw man maybe you should just bow out now, because so far you are 3 for 3 in your responses to me, and 3 strikes are all you get before I call you out for it.

Because here's the thing little one, you are so deep into your straw man at this point that you are arguing that trans shouldn't be allowed to get SRS because it erases them as a minority and that having a birth defect makes a person not human. And neither of those things are hills you want to die on given how insulting they are to the people in question.

You have also got to wonder what the point of declassifying this as a medical condition would be.

But how does the trans-issue relate to Discovery?

 

[Satron]

I think there’s something worse with anyone who argues against it. You’re upset because you don’t want to see certain groups. I want more stories with new possibilities opened up by having people who are rarely represented. You want to limit it because you already have what you want like a spoiled child.

I'm not arguing against anything. I'm not upset. I do not want to limit anything.
I, too, would like to see more stories with a wide variety of people and personalities.

 

[cultcross]

Representation to reflect the current US-society? That of Earth? Or that of the Federation?

Star Trek is Americentric in every other respect, so why should diversity be any different? I can't help but feel this common "but this is a future Federation!" argument against diversity is just a dodge. The show is being made in and for modern America, let it reflect its people in the way that many aspects of the show reflect its politics and culture.
"The federation is America in Space, apart from its all straight white people, because it's the future"

 

[Paul Weaver]

In the US, between 1 in 200 and 1 in 300 people are transgender. There are 5 main characters in discovery.