Lazy writers?

[Paradise City]

There doesn't *need* to be internal conflict as long as the antagonists are strong. Get the external antagonists strong and effective and you are good to go.

In real life you can find teams or an ensemble or a community that do get on with each other. Indeed, the TNG acting ensemle got on with each other off-screen.

I liked that TNG crew got on and I liked when they branched out with DS9 with alot of internal conflict withiin a multi-species frontier outpost. I was then somewhat disappointed internal conflict wasn't ramped up more on Voyager with the Maquis/Starfleet divide.

 

[STR]

I liked that TNG crew got on and I liked when they branched out with DS9 with alot of internal conflict withiin a multi-species frontier outpost. I was then somewhat disappointed internal conflict was ramped up more on Voyager with the Maquis/Starfleet divide.

I've seen worse conflict in real life than I saw on Voyager. Specifically when half the office roots for one football team and the other half roots for another. Unless I missed the episode where Harry Kim calls Chakotay a "cheese head piece of ****"

The storytelling of TNG is unique. There is nothing before and after that TV show, that tells stories like that (and with "Discovery", it is officially killed under the Trek brand and thus I dont call myself a Trek fan anymore, but a TNG-only fan).

You exaggerate more than a little.

 

[The Wormhole]

The argument "main characters need to have conflict" is pretty much an excuse for lazy writing (and thus: easy paycheck). I go with Michael Piller, who defended the so called "Roddenberry Box", because it forced the writers to go the extra mile and NOT use the usual tools to create conflict in a fictional show, but have to create a different way to create conflict.

Thing is, TNG ditched the "Roddenberry Box" when it suited them. Riker and his dad need to fight it out to settle their differences, Barclay's getting everyone pissed off at him and goes to the holodeck to act out fantasies in which he beats up his superiors, or is superior to them in fencing. Or introducing Ro Laren, a troubled officer with a bad attitude. Data and his XO on the Sutherland getting into constant arguments, Riker and Shelby arguing over procedure and career ambitions. Hell, one of the most popular TNG episodes is the one that is completely anti-Roddenberry and his ideals, the complete antithesis of Gene's Vision. Yesterday's Enterprise, in which the Enterprise is a legitimate warship, Starfleet is intentionally a military, and the crew aren't all friends and who always agree.

Really, the Roddenberry Box did nothing but limit storytelling, and forced the show to constantly revisit the same tired tropes, or worse contributed to the later problem of technobabble becoming the plot. True creativity comes only when unfettered. And I think on some level Piller agreed. Why else did he take a writer who walked out on him during TNG because he couldn't operate under the Box and brought him back to run DS9 free of the Box?

 

[Vger23]

...TNG had balls...

I respect your post, becaue I think you make some compelling points...


But this is a ridiculous statement.

TNG was a great many things, but a show "with balls" it generally was NOT.

 

[The Wormhole]

Shit, I can't believe I forgot this in my other post above, but where was this so called "Roddenberry Box" in Chain of Command? Jellico basically brought conflict and drama onto the show, and this episode introduced Admiral Nechayev who Picard got into conflict with on a few occasions.

 

[jaime]

I agree: The argument "main characters need to have conflict" is pretty much an excuse for lazy writing (and thus: easy paycheck). I go with Michael Piller, who defended the so called "Roddenberry Box", because it forced the writers to go the extra mile and NOT use the usual tools to create conflict in a fictional show, but have to create a different way to create conflict.

And those consumers, who want to have permanent conflict within the main characters pretty much dont want to be challenged by stories which just dont use this device. Fun fact: There are not also lazy writers, but also lazy viewers.

The "Roddenberry Box" is the main reason I became a Star Trek fan with TNG, because it made the show totally different to anything else that was on TV (and actually still is very unique in this way, since all other spin offs tried to steer away from that and thus became more like the usual TV shows).

The storytelling of TNG is unique. There is nothing before and after that TV show, that tells stories like that (and with "Discovery", it is officially killed under the Trek brand and thus I dont call myself a Trek fan anymore, but a TNG-only fan).

TNG had balls, and I respect that as a viewer. I hear the writers and producers complain, but for me they are just all on the Wah-wah-train, complaining they had to work harder to come up with a story for TNG. And that I don't respect.

I am not a regular viewer, but over my dads shoulder as it were, NCIS follows the TNG template.

 

[jaime]

Shit, I can't believe I forgot this in my other post above, but where was this so called "Roddenberry Box" in Chain of Command? Jellico basically brought conflict and drama onto the show, and this episode introduced Admiral Nechayev who Picard got into conflict with on a few occasions.

Tiny conflict. And it was between the established crew and an outsider, thereby fulfilling the rules. It was also after Rodenberry passed and Piller was prepping other things.

 

[jaime]

I respect your post, becaue I think you make some compelling points...


But this is a ridiculous statement.

TNG was a great many things, but a show "with balls" it generally was NOT.

For its time period it was. First run syndication? Some of the storylines and the subject matter?
Yes other shows had courage, but simply because it had company (NYPD Blue, etc etc) doesn’t mean it didn’t break new ground.

 

[jaime]

Thing is, TNG ditched the "Roddenberry Box" when it suited them. Riker and his dad need to fight it out to settle their differences, Barclay's getting everyone pissed off at him and goes to the holodeck to act out fantasies in which he beats up his superiors, or is superior to them in fencing. Or introducing Ro Laren, a troubled officer with a bad attitude. Data and his XO on the Sutherland getting into constant arguments, Riker and Shelby arguing over procedure and career ambitions. Hell, one of the most popular TNG episodes is the one that is completely anti-Roddenberry and his ideals, the complete antithesis of Gene's Vision. Yesterday's Enterprise, in which the Enterprise is a legitimate warship, Starfleet is intentionally a military, and the crew aren't all friends and who always agree.

Really, the Roddenberry Box did nothing but limit storytelling, and forced the show to constantly revisit the same tired tropes, or worse contributed to the later problem of technobabble becoming the plot. True creativity comes only when unfettered. And I think on some level Piller agreed. Why else did he take a writer who walked out on him during TNG because he couldn't operate under the Box and brought him back to run DS9 free of the Box?

Every single one of those has the conflict come from outside the crew, and Yesterday’s Enterprise is basically a mirror universe show...it’s whole reasoning is to show how the crew would be different. Even in that universe, I don’t remember internal conflict of any great level.

Ds9 wasn’t free of the box, Ds9 examined the box and showed how it’s made.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So did they in TNG, they just did it in a more professional manner. Your suggestion was overruled by the captain? Move on, don't throw a tantrum.

Which was often as interesting to watch as a board meeting.

 

[Paul Weaver]

There was disagreement even when Roddenbury was still involved - pen pals for example.

TNG had some terrible episodes like chain of command, but on the whole gave the kind of hope for the future that is so sorely needed.

 

[Paradise City]

I've seen worse conflict in real life than I saw on Voyager. Specifically when half the office roots for one football team and the other half roots for another. .

Sorry, I meant to type "wasn't" rather than "was". I've edited the post.

 

[Vger23]

There was disagreement even when Roddenbury was still involved - pen pals for example.

TNG had some terrible episodes like chain of command, but on the whole gave the kind of hope for the future that is so sorely needed.

You may not have liked "Chain of Command," and that's your perogative, but you've got no ground to stand on calling it a terrible episode.

 

[Vger23]

I think it's interesting, for all of TNG's anti-conflict, "bright optimism for the future" stuff that everyone applaudes, that the darker, more conflict-laden episodes are often amongst the most popular.

Best of Both Worlds
Chain of Command
Conspiracy
Yesterday's Enterprise
Q Who
Redemption

 

[The Old Mixer]

I am not a regular viewer, but over my dads shoulder as it were, NCIS follows the TNG template.

Tiny conflict. And it was between the established crew and an outsider, thereby fulfilling the rules. It was also after Rodenberry passed and Piller was prepping other things.

For its time period it was. First run syndication? Some of the storylines and the subject matter?
Yes other shows had courage, but simply because it had company (NYPD Blue, etc etc) doesn’t mean it didn’t break new ground.

Every single one of those has the conflict come from outside the crew, and Yesterday’s Enterprise is basically a mirror universe show...it’s whole reasoning is to show how the crew would be different. Even in that universe, I don’t remember internal conflict of any great level.

Ds9 wasn’t free of the box, Ds9 examined the box and showed how it’s made.

Please use the multi-quote feature in lieu of posting four times in a row. Thanks.

 

[Greg Cox]

There was disagreement even when Roddenbury was still involved - pen pals for example.

TNG had some terrible episodes like chain of command, but on the whole gave the kind of hope for the future that is so sorely needed.

Huh? "Chain of Command," both parts, is one of TNG'S high points. IMHO.

(Although let's be honest. If DISCOVERY had the captain literally tortured for a whole ep, people would be complaining that this was too "dark" for STAR TREK and an insult to Roddenberry's vision.)

 

[suarezguy]

DS9 also had an array of narrative freedoms you couldn't begin to see during TOS, like characters such as regarding backstories and narrative for Ben, Eddington, Kira, Bashier, Dax, Odo, Garak, Worf, or anyone else - and DS9 is all the richer because of it

Eddington came off as a delusional psycho and Worf often felt less interesting than he had on TNG but agreed the others were quite good.

 

[JesterFace]

Which was often as interesting to watch as a board meeting.

Are you sure you're on the right message board?

I think a board meeting can be more entertaining than people having a disagreement.

 

[Nerys Myk]

For its time period it was. First run syndication? Some of the storylines and the subject matter?
Yes other shows had courage, but simply because it had company (NYPD Blue, etc etc) doesn’t mean it didn’t break new ground.

I think that "company" was working on a totally different level than TNG. And shows like Hill Street Blues and St Elsewhere were playing at that level and breaking new ground before a second of TNG had aired.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Are you sure you're on the right message board?

I think a board meeting can be more entertaining than people having a disagreement.

I think something might have been lost in the translation.

 

[Salinga]

Thing is, TNG ditched the "Roddenberry Box" when it suited them.

*yawn* The usual strategy of painting the exception as the rule to discredit a whole topic. That is almost borderline "whataboutism".

There is a reason why it always stood out when TNG went against the Roddenberry-Box: Because it was an exception, and it always was an exception for a reason.

That's also why many critics dont see DIS as Star Trek (see the IMDB comments), because that show took what was the exception before in trek and made it the rule.

 

[JesterFace]

I think something might have been lost in the translation.

Again...

I suck?