Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x06 - "Lethe"

[Guy Gardener]

A few questions?
1) Is it night?
2) Are you running?
3) Do you have a knife?

Lorca got 24 kills and Ash got 36... Sorry, my math was off because there was glare on Ash's LCD, so from memory I thought Ash killed 86, and Lorca got slightly less hits than that.

60 kills, in 10 minutes, give or take.

Not terrible.

Although if Lorca had further PTSD, from last week, this was a terrible training scenario.

While looking elsewhere I noticed that there was an episode of Andromeda with Lethe in the title. The one Where Hunt sends voicemail back to not yet dead wife in the past.

 

[Refuge]

Michael is really growing on me. In the first two parts, I think her characterization was off. Since then, she's become much relatable. Tilly, Stamets, and Saru are all eminently likeable. I'd add Tyler to that category too . . . but given the theory about him I'm not too sure!

I think it is important to have some 'like' invested if for no other reason than to given another emotion. I also don't think likeability is boring, in fact it can be inspiring.

Thus far Lorca is unlikable but the most compelling because of the actor - and I'm not a fan of his at all, but credit to him for that.

Michael I want to like.

Tilly - anooooooooooooooying.

Stamets - he's sort of different each episode.

Saru - my interest in him is slipping away. It's like he's played his card and I just don't care anymore.

Tyle - can I be honest? He's the pretty boy. Yes I'm guilty of shallowness and that is unfair but that's how it feels.

 

[Nerys Myk]

While looking elsewhere I noticed that there was an episode of Andromeda with Lethe in the title. The one Where Hunt sends voicemail back to not yet dead wife in the past.

If I had actually watched Andromeda, that might mean something.

 

[Ovation]

Michael is really growing on me. In the first two parts, I think her characterization was off. Since then, she's become much relatable. Tilly, Stamets, and Saru are all eminently likeable. I'd add Tyler to that category too . . . but given the theory about him I'm not too sure!

There’s a theory about Tyler? Hadn’t heard.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There’s a theory about Tyler? Hadn’t heard.

He's actually Steven Tyler. Guy's gonna live longer than Keith Richards.

 

[Ovation]

He's actually Steven Tyler. Guy's gonna live longer than Keith Richards.

He just might at that.

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

He's actually Steven Tyler. Guy's gonna live longer than Keith Richards.

Heroin. It does a body good.

 

[indranee]

I think it is important to have some 'like' invested if for no other reason than to given another emotion. I also don't think likeability is boring, in fact it can be inspiring.

Thus far Lorca is unlikable but the most compelling because of the actor - and I'm not a fan of his at all, but credit to him for that.

Michael I want to like.

Tilly - anooooooooooooooying.

Stamets - he's sort of different each episode.

Saru - my interest in him is slipping away. It's like he's played his card and I just don't care anymore.

Tyle - can I be honest? He's the pretty boy. Yes I'm guilty of shallowness and that is unfair but that's how it feels.

Our mileage varies then. I just can't stay interested in a character that is continually likeable. It takes away from the humanity of it all. Human beings are not bred to be likeable all the time. If they are, they're deceiving you (and perhaps themselves). In drama, it's even more important for characters to evoke a slight sense of mystery/repulsion from the audience/viewer for the attraction to be maintained.

As for the DIS characters you mentioned, I would rather be TAKEN with my characters than LIKE them. And this bunch of characters? Oh my. I am completely taken with them.

Michael is not inherently likeable stemming from inner conflicts. She doesn't like herself to begin with. The viewer can either accompany her on her journey to self-respect and acceptance, or be repulsed.

Tilly may be annoying to you, but I find her refreshing as she's not a know-it-all like Wesley or ACTUALLY annoying like Nog (although he was hilarious).

I find Saru to be a mass of contradictions and pining for some control over his environment and love watching him react.

And Lorca. Well, he's just an onion waiting to be peeled. And I can't wait.

It's a ride, alright, this show. Beyond my expectations. Likeability. Hell. That doesn't even enter into the equation. I'm entertained!

 

[Refuge]

Our mileage varies then. I just can't stay interested in a character that is continually likeable. It takes away from the humanity of it all. Human beings are not bred to be likeable all the time. If they are, they're deceiving you (and perhaps themselves). In drama, it's even more important for characters to evoke a slight sense of mystery/repulsion from the audience/viewer for the attraction to be maintained.

As for the DIS characters you mentioned, I would rather be TAKEN with my characters than LIKE them. And this bunch of characters? Oh my. I am completely taken with them.

Michael is not inherently likeable stemming from inner conflicts. She doesn't like herself to begin with. The viewer can either accompany her on her journey to self-respect and acceptance, or be repulsed.

Tilly may be annoying to you, but I find her refreshing as she's not a know-it-all like Wesley or ACTUALLY annoying like Nog (although he was hilarious).

I find Saru to be a mass of contradictions and pining for some control over his environment and love watching him react.

And Lorca. Well, he's just an onion waiting to be peeled. And I can't wait.

It's a ride, alright, this show. Beyond my expectations. Likeability. Hell. That doesn't even enter into the equation. I'm entertained!

Oh .. I would offer the thought that likeability adds to humanity, it isn't about being flawless. It kind of having admirable qualities. And I shall leave at that

 

[Uhura's Song]

Don't know if this posted herecare not: FWIW that was not supposed to be a moon but Vulcan's sister planet: T'Khut (spelling) which is supposedly visible from the plant's surface.

I love it when people get up in arms about canon violations and then it turns out there wasn't one. Holodecks, Vulcan moon, whatever.

 

[indranee]

Oh .. I would offer the thought that likeability adds to humanity, it isn't about being flawless. It kind of having admirable qualities. And I shall leave at that

Sure, and I'm not saying I like asshole characters, really

It's just that I like them to mix it up, ya know? Take Lorca. I can NOW tell that he didn't begin this way. He was "different" (as attested by his ex-flame?). And the way he acts, I can tell that there are bits and pieces of nobility and kindness and generosity within him, but at this very moment, those traits have taken a back seat. He's now an active work in progress toward a very bad place.

Sure, he's not "likeable", but as you said, he's compelling. And the difference between you and me is that I am quite happy with EVERY character having these sorts of chiaroscuric (I know that's an incorrect use ) traits.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If I had actually watched Andromeda, that might mean something.

No one sane will tell you to take a month out of your life to binge Andromeda.

They have too much respect you.

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[Lt. LaForge]

If Ash is a spy... Who looks and acts just a like a real human... Then they can copy Cornwall too.

Bloody Cylon's all over again

 

[Charles Phipps]

Well that's a bad position to put an actor because Michael isn't likable.

That's not a value judgement from a fan but from the show's own in-universe statement. She was a career orientated know it all who is now hated by everyone and has no social skills to fall back on.

I wouldn't be surprised if aside from Captain Georgiou she's never had any friends in her life before Tilly.

She lived on parental approval before.

 

[Succubint]

Let's not forget that Tilly also made the inappropriate comment that Michael lacked a personality during their jog. I think the writers are well aware of how Michael's internal struggle is creating a less than likable character who is struggling to find her true voice. That's why I loved how she re-introduced herself to Ash. It felt like a thawing, a glimpse at the real woman behind the stoic facade.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Cadets haven't graduated the academy. Hence, no postings, per se. Training cruises, sure, but you don't put cadets on warships in the middle of a war. There should be more than enough manpower to suffice without robbing the cradle. And you certainly don't give them the kind of security clearances needed to even know about the existence of Discovery, much less serve on her. It's just bad writing. I had the same problem with Saavik, to an extent, and Valeris, though the latter was more the weird costuming error that made her a LtCdr that threw me off.

Funny, I react to Wesley almost the same way I react to Tilly. They are clearly the same archetype, the only difference being at least they put Tilly in the framework as someone about ready to graduate the academy; she was already on her way to becoming an officer. Wesley was just a dependent and that annoyed the Dickens out of me, in the way he kept on getting in the way...

Nog was posted on DS9 while still a cadet (a 'field studies program'). That's without even mentioning TWOK, ST09 (this one in particular was a deliberate choice to send cadets into a dangerous situation) or the USS Valiant. I have no problem believing Starfleet - caught unprepared by a war - would create some kind of program designed to put cadets (at least those that are well prepared enough) in the field faster, say by replacing their final year with a year of field training or some such idea.

As for secrecy, it only matters if she has some ability to go somewhere else. As long as she's on the ship, she can't reveal its existence even if she wanted to. (I'm assuming Discovery's comm. systems are under tight control.) And, as I already said, the ship still needs grunts and number crunchers - and in the middle of a war, you can't put all your brightest people on one or two ships just because you're afraid of letting the junior officers/cadets in on a secret (which they couldn't divulge, anyway).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well that's a bad position to put an actor because Michael isn't likable.

That's not a value judgement from a fan but from the show's own in-universe statement. She was a career orientated know it all who is now hated by everyone and has no social skills to fall back on.

I wouldn't be surprised if aside from Captain Georgiou she's never had any friends in her life before Tilly.

She lived on parental approval before.

Friend?

Gosh.

You're funny.

Tilly is there to put a hole in the back of Michael's head the next time she tries to illegally commandeer a Star Ship.

 

[Refuge]

Tilly is put there to be the cutsie, eager, beaver who in reality is horribly annoying.

 

[EyalM]

I really liked the character work in this episode.
Some random thoughts:

Vulcans talking calmly while one is in the process of blowing himself up. Talk about repressing emotions...

Admiral should have shown up with a fleet to the negotiations. It should be obvious by now that Klignons appreciate a show of force.

What is the Vulcan exploration force? Are they also fighting the Klingons? Or are they purely for exploration?

Sarek is not a good father. But I like the show making its characters intentionally flawed (or using existing ones, in Sarek's case).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tilly is put there to be the cutsie, eager, beaver who in reality is horribly annoying.

My continuing theory that Silly Tilly is 16, starts to flounder, if she put her hat in the ring to take a shot at Tyler, who is clearly straddling 30 (the actor is 27)... but if Tilly has dibs, I saw her call dibs, did you see her call dibs? ...And the girl-code has survived into the 23rd century...

Meangirls or Gone Girl?

Michael Burnham is on borrowed time.