The lack of depiction of onagers, trebuchets, mangonels and other siege weapons makes me think engineering isn't a well regarded topic of study by the maesters.
Spoilers Game of Thrones - Season 7
- Thread starter dahj
- Start date
Another comes to mind: Seeing Arya succeed so well against Brienne is another case of someone underestimating another because of their size. That's why her water dancing was so successful....much like Oberyn.
I don't want to see her die either but I do wonder if perhaps you're right in that count. I like to think they won't repeat that scenario, especially considering Oberyn's death is a deliberate and direct contrast to Bronn's victory for Tyrion's first trial by combat. I won't be surprised if Arya dies but not until next season, then all bets are off for everyone.
Ah, I stand corrected. I don't know how I forgot that. But then I also forgot about the gold so...
What gets me is how deep that water is the Jamie sinks into. His horse was running through it and he got knocked aside maybe twenty feet at most, but then that water seems bottomless suddenly.
After all these years it seems so weird to actually *see* a horde of Dothraki screamers with a dragon at their head, charging down a line of Westerosi soldiers and Knights.
Now that Arya has some Valyrian steel, I'm guessing she's going to end up calving up some white walkers. I mean I doubt the Three Eyed Crow would do *anything* for no articular reason, much less that.
I'm just not sure why Littlefinger gave it to him or the first place. Did we every find out for a fact who sent the cutthroat way back when? I always assumed it was Joffrey, but isn't there a line somewhere about the Lannisters never being able to get their hands on Valyrian steel until Tywin melted down Ice?
The last time Sansa saw Arya was before everything went to shit in King's Landing (what must be something like six years ago at this point!) From Sansa's POV, her sister was just a scrappy tomboy who liked playing with sticks and helmets not an actual sword-fighter, much less a ninja assassin apparently intent on personally murdering a Queen.
Indeed, I think there's a line that revealed that Sansa took Arya's "dancing lessons" at face value. As in she really thought Arya was just being taught how to dance. I think she said something along the lines of "She always comes back from her dancing lessons with scrapes and bruises. She's so clumsy!"
They also had something called a ballista, which is much bigger and operated by a crew. That's what I thought this was supposed to be when it was demoed in the previous episode.
We've seen catapults before, plus what looks like something like a ship mounted trebuchet and I think siege towers were at least mentioned last season with the episode with the Blackfish.
I think the reason we haven't seen more is because most of the battles have been open field engagements, usually surprise attacks which require speed and stealth. Not the kind of things that go well with moving siege engines over rough ground. There actually seems to have been very few sieges in the recent wars, possibly because no one army has had the supplies to maintain it and with a long winter on the way, it's been too much of a gamble.
Now that Arya has some Valyrian steel, I'm guessing she's going to end up calving up some white walkers. I mean I doubt the Three Eyed Crow would do *anything* for no articular reason, much less that.
I'm just not sure why Littlefinger gave it to him or the first place. Did we every find out for a fact who sent the cutthroat way back when? I always assumed it was Joffrey, but isn't there a line somewhere about the Lannisters never being able to get their hands on Valyrian steel until Tywin melted down Ice?
The last time Sansa saw Arya was before everything went to shit in King's Landing (what must be something like six years ago at this point!) From Sansa's POV, her sister was just a scrappy tomboy who liked playing with sticks and helmets not an actual sword-fighter, much less a ninja assassin apparently intent on personally murdering a Queen.
Indeed, I think there's a line that revealed that Sansa took Arya's "dancing lessons" at face value. As in she really thought Arya was just being taught how to dance. I think she said something along the lines of "She always comes back from her dancing lessons with scrapes and bruises. She's so clumsy!"
They also had something called a ballista, which is much bigger and operated by a crew. That's what I thought this was supposed to be when it was demoed in the previous episode.
We've seen catapults before, plus what looks like something like a ship mounted trebuchet and I think siege towers were at least mentioned last season with the episode with the Blackfish.
I think the reason we haven't seen more is because most of the battles have been open field engagements, usually surprise attacks which require speed and stealth. Not the kind of things that go well with moving siege engines over rough ground. There actually seems to have been very few sieges in the recent wars, possibly because no one army has had the supplies to maintain it and with a long winter on the way, it's been too much of a gamble.
The attacks on Casterley Rock and Highgarden might have been more credible if some use of siege engines had been depicted. We saw some ladders used in the former - bummer if you were an unsullied ordered up one of those - a high attrition rate.
No point in siege engines when the plan is to infiltrate the castle via the sewers and open the gates from the inside.
Typically sieges are meant to force a surrender though starvation and attrition. They really don't have time for that. Also, breaching the walls by force usually requires overwhelming numbers and firepower, which they also don't have...at least not in a way that leaves the place still usable and not melted to a ruined slag heap.
A lot of unsullied appeared to die unnecessarily as a mere diversion - a waste of a valuable asset. Also a lot of Dothraki died unnecessarily when Danaeres could just have torched the wagon train by herself.
Wondering if Seige Warfare is more or less likely in Westeros with the regular event of long winters. I'd think that would result in every keep being basically loaded with supplies. Not all the time, I suppose, but it would be ingrained in their whole being to save things up, set some aside for the long winter, etc. They'd be basically siege-proof. And the army waiting outside would be in a lot more trouble, supply-wise, and also not setting aside supplies for their own winter situation.
Of course, force a castle into a siege early, and they could burn out their supplies ahead of winter, so it's also a good way to kill a whole family/clan by eventually starving them out, even if it takes a few years to see that you killed them.
Maybe that should make siege weapons even MORE obvious, though, as no one has time to wait out a supplied castle, so more weapons along those lines would force the issue and let people get back to business at hand.
All this said, it's one thing the books covered that the series kinda glossed over. All this late fall/early winter war fighting has basically screwed over everyone. Should have been harvesting and storing, instead everything was destroyed and supplies were used up. Not going to be much left for the eventual 'winner', but the plus side is that there will be a lot fewer mouths to feed...
Of course, force a castle into a siege early, and they could burn out their supplies ahead of winter, so it's also a good way to kill a whole family/clan by eventually starving them out, even if it takes a few years to see that you killed them.
Maybe that should make siege weapons even MORE obvious, though, as no one has time to wait out a supplied castle, so more weapons along those lines would force the issue and let people get back to business at hand.
All this said, it's one thing the books covered that the series kinda glossed over. All this late fall/early winter war fighting has basically screwed over everyone. Should have been harvesting and storing, instead everything was destroyed and supplies were used up. Not going to be much left for the eventual 'winner', but the plus side is that there will be a lot fewer mouths to feed...
The thing about opening the gates to let your army in is that they really need to be right outside when you do. It's very difficult to have a few thousand soldiers hang around outside an enemy castle without coming under fire. And it's not really a waste if they achieved their objective with a manageable number of casualties.
That aside, I'm pretty sure that first bit with the ladders didn't actually happen. The way it was presented, I think it was just Tyrion describing how bad it would be if they attempted to take the fortifications head-on.
It wasn't just about the wagon train. It was about removing their army from the field too (which was the original objective for taking the aforementioned castle.) Even a dragon has it's limits and it'd be very difficult, bordering on suicidal for Danny to take on a whole army single-handedly. For one, it'd mean *all* the archers focused on her; One stray arrow and it's all over.
Secondly, the smart thing to do when your army is strafed by a dragon is to scatter your forces as wide as possible. Makes the fire less effective and allows you to surround and overwhelm the thing if it lands.
Incidentally, scattering is the exact opposite you do when you're defending against a cavalry charge. The Dothraki kept the Lannister forces nice and grouped up, allowing Danny to incinerate whole formations in one strafing run. It also prevented any significant numbers from retreating.
Again, not a waste but a productive use of one's resources. No point having an army if you're not willing to have it engage.
I get the impression that if they actually defeat the Night King, winter will just end and if they don't...well they probably won't be alive long enough for running out of food to be a pressing issue.
As for sieges in general, remember that Davos earned his knighthood by smuggling food into Storm's End during the rebellion, while the people inside were down to boiling book binding for soup. I think even Bronn mentioned some personal experience living through a siege when food got short enough that people got desperate.
They obviously happen, it's just that in these wars they've either happened off-screen because they're not particularly important to the central plot, or they simply haven't been an option. either too costly for the attackers, or the defenders are too ill prepared and/or beset by disease (as was the case with Moat Cailin.)
Last edited:
Okay, that does make sense. Littlefinger being Littlefinger.
I was thoroughly pleased how spooked he looked.
He's still trying to play the Game, I think that was the moment he realized someone changed the rulebook to include all seeing cryptic wizards
Iron Bank should invest in potatoes
But who can command them? They only listen to Dany and it's not like she took some person and said to the Dragons "Listen to them until i return" At best they would naturally fight against anything that attacked Dragonstone but one can't be sure.
First hit was on Brienne much exactly for the reasons you described.. she towers over Arya, she's a confident fighter and knows how much damage she can inflict even with a training sword and Arya has a toy sword. However after the first exchange whe realized her mistake and then went full in.. that kick to the chest was not child's play and it fired up Arya. Still she would have sliced up Brienne within a few moves if she had wanted to.
What surprised me is that she has so much combat skill.. Syrio's training was incomplete and she received further training with the Faceless Men but their main mode of operations is infiltration and stealth so it came a bit surprising when Arya went all Captain America on Brienne.
That's the obvious part.. Valyrian steel + Ninja skills equals dead White Walkers but then again Cersei is to the South so i don't know if Arya will abandon her main mission now even if she met her family again. However it may be "poetic justice" to use the very knife that nearly killed her brother to kill the person who was responsible for his crippling.
Concerning Littlefinger i think it was his way to worm into yet another powerful person's grace and the Starks are the power now in the north and Bran has a greater claim to the title than Jon (though Jon earned it and i doubt the other Lords would follow a cripple in battle even if he has the right family name). What i find interesting though is that Bran is apparently reading Littlefingers past.. it remains to be seen of he has fully scoped out Littlefinger and knows what a shit he is (but doesn't care since he has way bigger fish to fry at the moment) or if it was a spontaneous burst of knowledge that he can't place yet. Be that as it may it warned and unsettled Littlefinger so he may think twice about approaching Bran again.
Seeing the 3 Stark kids together at WInterfell you can't forget what happened in between.. their innocence in the pilot episode when they were just kids and what life did to them in 6 years. More pain than anyone should endure in a single lifetime and it changed them tremendously and they feel it. Bran is removing himself from humanity because of his greater purpose, Arya's life consists only of revenge and Sansa has been hurt by so many people that she has a hard time trusting anyone, even her closest family.
It will be interesting to see if they can become a true family again but i fear their paths will lead to even more pain.
I wonder how much gold it would take to a buy a army to go up against some dragons?
And Daenery needs to fly over to the north and have a look for herself to see what is going off.
And Daenery needs to fly over to the north and have a look for herself to see what is going off.
That should be Captain Westeros.
But in reflection after the episode, I did find a little odd the extent of her capabilities. However, she kept training while she was on the run with the Hound and she did learn some foot work with the Waif during the blind training.
I've wondered the same. They're more different than they are the same because of their individual journeys. Sharing the same blood, name and home may not be enough anymore, especially considering their individual goals now.
I was struck, and actually kind of sad, to see Bran blow of Mira like he did. She and her brother were thoroughly loyal to him, would have given their life for him (Jojan actually did), and Bran casts her off like yesterday's newspaper. That seemed a little harsh, even for Bran, and it was clear that Mira was starting to develop feelings for him - now that he's grown older the age variance doesn't seem as pronounced. Very sad to see her go under those circumstances. Just doesn't seem right. 
Yeah, the show never made it clear what the dragons do when she's not around, do they follow the party line or just go about doing dragony stuff like burning herds of sheep and scorching villagers?
I wondered that myself - since we never actually saw where they were during Dany's raid, and since she seems to be the only one who can control them, she probably brought them along with her and kept them in reserve several miles back, where they were still within reach in case something bad happened.
Similar threads
