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Agency of Female Characters

It's a bit chilling that the logical Vulcan society condones murder as a legally acceptable way to get out of an unwanted marriage. T'Pring didn't give a damn which man died - she chose the most logical/expedient way (to her) to ensure being free of Spock while making sure Stonn would still be alive.

Some of the fanfic regarding T'Pring's subsequent life post-Amok Time shows her absolutely no mercy. There's a "rated adult" series of stories in which Stonn lets her know just exactly how displeased he is that she sullied his honor by not involving him in her decision to use Kirk as her champion. He decides to make T'Pring his literal chattel, as the law allows him to do.

There is another story in which T'Pring is not made literal chattel, but karma comes back to bite her many years later, when she's unable to find a bondmate for her daughter. Nobody will consider allowing their son to be bonded to the daughter of a woman who showed that she was willing to let her own (first) bondmate be killed for such a frivolous reason.

I've never read anything, anywhere, in which T'Pring comes out of this with her honor and reputation untarnished, or that she ever comes to regret her decision because it was unethical.

I've read a couple of fanics where T'Pring does not end up being the "bad guy" necessarily. Ahem maybe one or two where it pushes Kirk and Spock together (wink wink) and another couple where she chooses Kirk because she doesn't want either Spock or Stonn to die and she'd rather have some guy she never heard of die (Kirk) - OK maybe not all that ethical.
Did T'Pring have any other way getting out of her marriage to Spock? T'Pol got out of her marriage ahead of time without bloodshed and Tuvok meditated his way out, the other Vulcan on Voyager used the holodeck or something but that was done post TOS. I mean if I knew anyone who was trying to get out of an arranged marriage I would be on her side. I would help her get away or hide or call the police or whatever. However we all seem to be on the man's side here.
The situation is somewhat different in TOS as Spocks going to die. I think when T'Pring says its the only way out I think it the only way out without her losing status. If what happened on ENT is true and T'Pring could have gotten out of it beforehand giving Spock time to find someone else then T'Pring deserves all the hate we give her.
 
I've read a couple of fanics where T'Pring does not end up being the "bad guy" necessarily. Ahem maybe one or two where it pushes Kirk and Spock together (wink wink) and another couple where she chooses Kirk because she doesn't want either Spock or Stonn to die and she'd rather have some guy she never heard of die (Kirk) - OK maybe not all that ethical.
Yes, I know why she chose Kirk - because if he won, he wouldn't want her, Spock would be dead, and she'd still have Stonn. I've got a fanfic in the early stages where he surprises the crap out of her by accepting her. No Stonn for her!

Did T'Pring have any other way getting out of her marriage to Spock? T'Pol got out of her marriage ahead of time without bloodshed and Tuvok meditated his way out, the other Vulcan on Voyager used the holodeck or something but that was done post TOS. I mean if I knew anyone who was trying to get out of an arranged marriage I would be on her side. I would help her get away or hide or call the police or whatever. However we all seem to be on the man's side here.
I wouldn't know about T'Pol, since I haven't watched more than maybe half a season of Enterprise, if even that.


It sounds logical to us, in RL 21st-century North America (or other western countries) that there should be a legal way to get out of an arranged marriage via the courts. In fact, arranged marriages in which either of the participants is given no choice are illegal here. That said, there's a community in Bountiful, BC, Canada that's a Mormon offshoot where they practiced polygamy and successfully kept themselves out of jail for awhile by claiming their Charter rights were being violated on the basis of religion; that's been quashed now, and we've been informed that one man had 24 wives and over 140 children, while another man had 9 wives (number of children was not specified). That community would traffick teenage girls across the border to a similar community in the U.S., for the purpose of arranged marriages.


But would it be logical to Vulcans to use the courts? There's a story on the website linked in my sig in which Spock and the Enterprise's Assistant Science Officer (a half-human/half-Antari woman) decide to marry. They have to get permission from Kirk and Starfleet to wed, and everything seems to go swimmingly until T'Pring files to stop the wedding, claiming that Spock is already married - to her.

So Spock has to go to Vulcan and get this settled... and it turns out that T'Pring actually doesn't want to marry him. Her solution is to get a settlement of land from Spock's clan. Sarek, of course, is outraged and tells Spock that the only logical thing for him to do is to go ahead and fulfill the old marriage agreement with T'Pring, because he is NOT going to give up any of the clan lands to her or her clan.

Anyway, Spock figures out a solution that results in T'Pring getting a monetary settlement, the land is saved, and Spock and Ruth marry and live happily ever after... so far (this fanfic series takes place over several decades).


I'm not sure why you brought Tuvok into this. His problem was that he went into pon farr without his wife being available. He wasn't trying to get out of anything other than death because he had nobody to get him through that time.

The only reason I'm on the man's side in this is because T'Pring used Vulcan law in a particularly vicious and cruel way. I do not approve of arranged marriages, so please don't assume that I do just because I disapprove of T'Pring's method of getting out of hers. She acted like everything was Spock's fault, when I daresay he wasn't any more in favor of the marriage than she was.

The situation is somewhat different in TOS as Spocks going to die. I think when T'Pring says its the only way out I think it the only way out without her losing status.
Except she did lose status. She became "the property of the victor." Even though Spock didn't keep her, he gave her to Stonn, in the same way that he could give away his lyre, his books, his meditation robe, or anything else he owned. In accepting her, Stonn became her new owner. It would be up to Stonn whether or not they became bondmates (aka married).

If what happened on ENT is true and T'Pring could have gotten out of it beforehand giving Spock time to find someone else then T'Pring deserves all the hate we give her.
As mentioned, I never saw the episode pertaining to T'Pol's marriage or how she got out of it. I have a hard time believing that a society that prides itself on peace and logic wouldn't have a legal way to void marriage contracts without requiring someone's death.

I guess T'Pring didn't trust the courts, or thought that Sarek - one of the highest-ranking men on the whole planet - would easily find a way to quash any petition she made to dissolve the pre-bonding contract. So she used the only other legal way available, and Sarek wouldn't be able to do anything to prevent it.

(yes, I know that someone will mention that Sarek and Spock were not on good terms, but Sarek would never allow anything to happen in the courts that would sully his clan's standing in the community, period.)
 
Mother Horta is a good call.

That fanfic about T'Pring sounds like it was written by disapproving men incapable of thinking from a Vulcan mindset.

I'll have to take note in the later episodes to see if Sulu and Cheky fare poorly in the agency stakes.
 
That fanfic about T'Pring sounds like it was written by disapproving men incapable of thinking from a Vulcan mindset.
Which fanfic? I've mentioned several. If you mean the one about Spock marrying his assistant and T'Pring suing, that story was not written by a man. Neither was the one I mentioned in which Stonn decides to treat T'Pring literally like chattel, to get back at her for dishonoring him at the ceremony.
 
I wrote my reply on my tablet before seeing the last two posts on the subject. I was referring to the fanfic that essentially punished T'Pring and her daughter for daring to take her own fate in her own hands. Spock implied that it would be Stonn who would come off worse, since he clearly loves T'Pring, while she clearly has her emotions in a vice.

T'Pring isn't being vicious though; she's just being logical. Nothing about Vulcan mating appears logical. Why is Stonn even available? Isn't he already bonded with someone else? So should we assume that not everybody chooses to pair bond their children and if so, what motivates those that do?

One assumes children would be paired based on genetic matching, since no other alternative makes sense in a post-need society. It might be based on social status but that doesn't seem very logical either. Spock is part-human. This could mean that T'Pring was chosen because she has the best chance of producing a healthy, genetically robust child with a hybrid. She may simply not want a hybrid child and is equally compatible with Stonn. Love may not come into it at all with her. Just logic.
 
I wrote my reply on my tablet before seeing the last two posts on the subject. I was referring to the fanfic that essentially punished T'Pring and her daughter for daring to take her own fate in her own hands. Spock implied that it would be Stonn who would come off worse, since he clearly loves T'Pring, while she clearly has her emotions in a vice.
I am trying to find the story, to see who wrote it. Keep in mind, however, that most people who write and post fanfic are women.

T'Pring isn't being vicious though; she's just being logical. Nothing about Vulcan mating appears logical. Why is Stonn even available? Isn't he already bonded with someone else? So should we assume that not everybody chooses to pair bond their children and if so, what motivates those that do?
It's possible that Stonn's parents chose not to bond him, or they might have and his bondmate died.

One assumes children would be paired based on genetic matching, since no other alternative makes sense in a post-need society. It might be based on social status but that doesn't seem very logical either. Spock is part-human. This could mean that T'Pring was chosen because she has the best chance of producing a healthy, genetically robust child with a hybrid. She may simply not want a hybrid child and is equally compatible with Stonn. Love may not come into it at all with her. Just logic.
She did say that she didn't want to be the consort of a legend. Considering the high social standing of Spock's family and Spock's own increasing fame in Starfleet, I took that to mean that T'Pring didn't want to live her life in the public eye, as the wife of a celebrity.
 
I am trying to find the story, to see who wrote it. Keep in mind, however, that most people who write and post fanfic are women.


It's possible that Stonn's parents chose not to bond him, or they might have and his bondmate died.


She did say that she didn't want to be the consort of a legend. Considering the high social standing of Spock's family and Spock's own increasing fame in Starfleet, I took that to mean that T'Pring didn't want to live her life in the public eye, as the wife of a celebrity.

Sigh, some women are so disloyal to their own sex.

Vulcans 'can't' lie so I guess that must have been T'Pring's reason. I still struggle to fathom why they would pair up children in the first place - unless it's a necessary part of the Ponn Farr process. Still, I suppose it's the fighting that purges the urges and only the satisfaction of killing someone that comes close to the sweet glow of Vulcan mating. Why can't you just get divorced after you've mated though? If that's all it is, you would think that saying, "I divorce thee," three times (or once, with those acute Vulcan ears) would be preferable to a fight to the death. Are Vulcan children traumatised if they come from a broken home? That's certainly possible - look at Sybok.

More Vulcans should join Vindr for all their Ponn Farr needs.
 
Sigh, some women are so disloyal to their own sex.
:rolleyes:

Whatever made you think that all women are supposed to be loyal to each other? Are all men loyal to one another?

Vulcans 'can't' lie so I guess that must have been T'Pring's reason.
If Vulcans can kill for a logical reason, they should certainly be able to lie if they have a sufficiently logical reason.

I still struggle to fathom why they would pair up children in the first place - unless it's a necessary part of the Ponn Farr process. Still, I suppose it's the fighting that purges the urges and only the satisfaction of killing someone that comes close to the sweet glow of Vulcan mating. Why can't you just get divorced after you've mated though? If that's all it is, you would think that saying, "I divorce thee," three times (or once, with those acute Vulcan ears) would be preferable to a fight to the death. Are Vulcan children traumatised if they come from a broken home? That's certainly possible - look at Sybok.
Vulcan mating isn't only physical. It's telepathic, as well. So yeah, divorce after mating would be difficult since they're linked telepathically.
 
If Vulcans can kill for a logical reason, they should certainly be able to lie if they have a sufficiently logical reason.

Vulcan mating isn't only physical. It's telepathic, as well. So yeah, divorce after mating would be difficult since they're linked telepathically.

Yes, lol. Vulcan's lied on and off throughout the show whenever it was convenient. It's a farce really.

The telepathic element is intriguing, although not every Vulcan has telepathic abilities according to Enterprise, and how do Sarek and NuSpock cope with non-telepathic partners? Saavik's telepathic abilities were never really expanded upon since her heritage was edited out but if she was linked to Spock on Genesis, we have to assume that the fiction where they get married is canon. The poor old sod is in no fit state win a fight to the death.
 
Are we just assuming that Vulcans cant get divorced? Maybe they can. Looks like they need a partner for ponn farr. Maybe it could be a different one each time.
In ENT T'Pol went into a ponn farr thingy, but in TOS it looked like it was just the male. T'Pring didn't look like she was out of control at any stage. The thing in my mind that stops T'Pring from being a fine representative of women's rights is that she says after her conversation with Spock, that she'd still be fooling around with Stonn and living off Spock's money even if Spock won her.
 
I've been enjoying a re-watch of some of season one on the Horror Channel this month and one thing stood out: the women generally stand around and do nothing. Sulu assesses tactical options in several episodes. DeSalle can't wait to get stuck in. Rand, Ross, Uhura, and Martine, they all present themselves as officers and trained astronauts but all they do is cower and fail to understand the bigger picture even when it's really obvious to everyone else. Kirk is making an obvious play on Trelane's naive understanding of human interaction and it's implied that Ross falls for it too. In Shore Leave, Martine and Barrows just cower and rely on the men for help.

I was wondering if there are many instances where female characters are given any agency in the show, by which I mean they make a relevant decision without a direct command from a man that has an impact on the story. I can think of a few examples but they've been pretty sparse and very limited:

Number One leading the landing party and setting phasers to overload
Vina is generally awesome throughout
Janice Rand makes coffee with a phaser - tenuous i know, but they really needed that coffee.
Helen Noel improvising on her solo mission
Marla Mcgivers deciding to betray Khan
Zarabeth rescuing Spock and McCoy
T'Pring playing Spock for a fool
The Romulan Commander being in command
Lenore Karidian being all kinds of crazy
Marta being all kind of crazy
Janice Lester being all kinds of Crazy
Elaan being all kinds of Crazy
Losira being all kinds of programmed as a deathbot
Deela

It's not very impressive considering that a lot of them were nuts or guest alien leaders and most of the best examples of Starfleet officers were in the pilot episode. Are there any more?

I would also add the ugly way Grace Lee Whitney was dismissed from the show, and according to her it was after being raped in the studio parking lot by an exec. True to her word, Whitney took the name of her assailant to her grave. But hardly a mention when she passed away (same year as Nimoy).

I am gratified to see women's roles "beefed up" in more recent versions of Trek (since about mid TNG forward I would think). But I am somewhat dismayed that along with that improvement show makers downplay their femininity too much. Call me old fashioned. Equal but vive la difference!
 
There's something people tend to gloss over with Uhura: What happened to her on Triskelion. We hear her screaming, and Kirk yelling, "What's happening to Lieutenant Uhura?"

Well... this big, hairy guy is in her cell, she's screaming... WTF do you think is happening? It's not made clear if he succeeded in raping her, but it is obvious that he's trying.

There's a fanfic that actually addresses this, as after the mission, Uhura develops PTSD and tries to deal with it.


I liked Ann Mulhall - intelligent, no-nonsense, and (to the best of my recollection) the only female officer post-"The Cage" to have the rank of Lieutenant Commander.

Miranda? Nope, didn't like her at all.

Of course he didn't succeed in raping her! Lars comes out with a sore face and mentions that it is not allowed to refuse selection! But from the shadows on the wall he definitely was trying to persuade Uhura to allow his advances very forcefully and then we get the token woman screaming sounds. Obviously not made by Nichelle Nicholls!
JB
 
...So perhaps it was Lars screaming?

I'm not sure I understand why there should be significance to the women of the show using their skills without orders from superiors. After all, it's not as if the men use those skills without orders, either. This is just confused by the fact that the men are the superiors, getting to wear more rank braid than all the women of the given scene combined.

With Uhura, there's the audience mis-expectations aspect to consider, too. How could she help Spock with translating the Preserver texts when she's a communications officer, not a linguist? Spock is the go-to man for deciphering, and no doubt he can access the Linguistics Dept, too. It's just that Uhura is not on the payroll of that dept.

The bottom line is, it's not much of a position to flaunt "agency" if it's communications or yeomanning. And the guest star women with meatier jobs would have had problems with the fact that the men already held those jobs - Masters needs Scotty evicted to a holiday of some sort to play a relevant engineer role, and all science specialists (male and female alike) are simply outshadowed by Spock.

As for pon farr, Vulcans might do well to tightly regulate their marriages to avoid inbreeding - a major problem on a desert planet with isolated communities. Also, if a marriage goes wrong, it's to the advantage of everybody that the disgruntled participants be executed ASAP - they are Vulcans, after all, people prone to extremes of emotion, and physically violent by nature. Imagine having an ex like that for 200 years! So the community matriarchs write laws outsourcing the execution of the loser to the winner.

By the time of the show, much of that is ancient past. But so is koon-ut-kal-if-fee - nobody challenges or fights or dies any more at that day or age! T'Pring is just taking advantage of a dead-letter law left in the books.

As for why, she pretty much spells it out. Spock being a celebrity (read: semialien freak) would make life with him hell for her - but Spock being a celebrity makes divorce complicated, too. This is the family that can drag T'Pau herself to conduct the ceremony. What hope does T'Pring have of outfoxing their lawyers? (Turns out, pretty good hope!)

Timo Saloniemi
 
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