I have to disagree.
I do find warp speed, transporters, holodecks and replicators more plausible than a nine-year lifespan for a developed species.
My theory on why Kes wasn't a more beloved character. Also opinion on Lien. post-"Voyager."
- Thread starter Jayson1
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I do find warp speed, transporters, holodecks and replicators more plausible than a nine-year lifespan for a developed species.
That's a good point.
Yes, I saw those as well. Please stop assuming what I do and don't do.
My point is that seven was marketed a certain way, and that was sex appeal. It didn't happen with Troi, though her costumes made no sense to me, and T'Pol annoys me just as much.
Clearly.Naughty, naughty fireproof!
You should know that it's very, very naughty and unfair to criticize the catsuit and the marketing of "sexy Seven". You can be severely attacked for that.
Just like kicking a beehive, you can end up with a lot of bees stinging you.
Yes, it does. As does several other "aliens 'of the week" that make no sense. But, guess what? They are not a featured as weekly characters who's life span is a subject of several episodes.
But, if you want to through a list, I'm all for it.
My feeling on Kes is that they never committed to any of the threads that would make her more interesting. If they had made more of an arc out of her telepathic development instead of touching on it in Cold Fire then suddenly dialing it to 11 in The Gift it could have taken root. Instead she was mostly buried under Neelix's mannerisms and was used as a widget to empathize with people.
I don't object to Seven's outfit being sexy but I do object to it being out of character for her established personality.
I think that sort of represents the biggest problem with the catsuit. It doesn't look like something Seven would really choose to wear since she doesn't seem like someone who would feel the need to make herself look super sexy. I think I have the same issue with Kira in her season 4 and beyond outfit but the big difference is the show never really sold the audience on her being a sex symbol. MIght be because the show and the character was already established or maybe because Dax was proably seen more like the "sexy character" on the show than Kira was.
Jason
If the Borg are about efficiency, I don't see how high heels would be efficient.
The suit could maybe be argued to be efficient, but I agree, the heels are not. Also, Jeri Ryan is pretty tall to begin with, so I don't see the reason for them either.
Of course, I object to heels on several grounds in all places of life, so I will admit that bias.
It isn't that for me.
I couldn't care less if I saw someone walking like that on the street, because then I'll assume it's his or her free choice to wear that, no strings attached. Doesn't bother me to walk on a nudist beach either.
However, it does upset me if I get the impression that 'sexy' outfits are used as a marketing ploy. It sends a message I don't like at all.
You said it better than I. I was amused by the idea that my objecting to marketing of Seven was apparently prudish. Which, I'll take the "prude" label any day, as the entomology of the word is positive in the past.
But, different view points and the like.
I don't like heels either. I wore some slight heels in high school on the rare occasions I wore a dress and for church. Just to fit in. But I didn't need them for height, since I was 5'9".
It doesn't bother me if characters are sexy but it bothers me if art is compromised to make them sexy, and I feel that's the case with Seven's catsuit.
And Jeri Ryan is sexy. It's not like they needed to put her in a skin tight uniform for her to be sexy.
And Jeri Ryan is sexy. It's not like they needed to put her in a skin tight uniform for her to be sexy.
OMG, I'll say it again. There are magazines that "market" other Trek actresses with sex appeal, and there are many more magazine covers featuring Seven that don't market her sex appeal. Troy spent 6 seasons on TNG literally there for sex appeal. The actress has said so herself, and I've posted said quotes here before.
On Voyager, the character of Seven...is not written, or acted as a sex object at all. The closest you could get are one or two instances of Ensign Kim's boy crush. She's simply not. Catsuits are not evil. They are a part of Trek and a traditional component of sci fi. Yes, heels are dumb, but Voyager is not uniquely evil for having Seven, or Kes, or Janeway and B'elanna wear heels. And I didn't assume anything, only pointed out a bit of cherry picking.
I have something to add about Kes leaving the show. This, some snippets from an interview ity 2000(around when "Fury" was released), by Manny Patel Jr.
Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis. "Things pretty much still seem the same here," she commented. "It just feels like [I've been gone] a day. It doesn't feel like any time has passed, whereas in my own personal life, time has passed and I can definitely feel that."
"It's not a typical job," she states, "It's an honor. There's a difference. It was very nice of them to ask me back."
This next part I dedicate to Lynx-
On returning to the show, Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. "I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with," she states with a sigh of relief!
On Voyager, the character of Seven...is not written, or acted as a sex object at all. The closest you could get are one or two instances of Ensign Kim's boy crush. She's simply not. Catsuits are not evil. They are a part of Trek and a traditional component of sci fi. Yes, heels are dumb, but Voyager is not uniquely evil for having Seven, or Kes, or Janeway and B'elanna wear heels. And I didn't assume anything, only pointed out a bit of cherry picking.
I have something to add about Kes leaving the show. This, some snippets from an interview ity 2000(around when "Fury" was released), by Manny Patel Jr.
Jennifer admitted that it was very exciting to come back and commented on how she dealt with returning to a show that she used to appear on a weekly basis. "Things pretty much still seem the same here," she commented. "It just feels like [I've been gone] a day. It doesn't feel like any time has passed, whereas in my own personal life, time has passed and I can definitely feel that."
"It's not a typical job," she states, "It's an honor. There's a difference. It was very nice of them to ask me back."
This next part I dedicate to Lynx-
On returning to the show, Jennifer was concerned how Kes would be brought back. Executive Producers Rick Berman and Brannon Braga came up with a story line that brought the character back, but with a different angle. It was the task of staff writers Bryan Fuller and Michael Taylor to write the teleplay from the story idea. Jennifer was adamant that the fate of Kes was handled with great care, so some of the plot line was changed. "I had a discussion with the writers about the original script and we all came to a conclusion that we were happy with," she states with a sigh of relief!
I don't cherry pick. I don't read comics, or other things that are marketed in a similar way.
Also, i didn't care for TNG or Troi's character or her outfits. Same thing with T'Pol. So, no cherry picking here.
Catsuits are not evil, but I don't have to like them either.
I'd rather be nude.
There's a difference between behaving provocatively and being presented in a sexualized manner. Seven wasn't a vamp but she was blatantly dressed in a skin tight catsuit, that must have been a pain to wear. Not sure how practical it was for the character to wear either.
The brave new world is more track suit than cat suit
The brave new world is more track suit than cat suit
I disagree that they didn't write Seven in a sexual way. Remember I am the guy who made the thread that I felt like Seven was written with the subtext of being a Domanatrix. The whole ice queen personal is written in part because some guys fantasize about women being like that towards them.
It wasn't just the catsuit they were using to lure in horny teenage boys but the personality as well which is why they didn't go with a more everyone type of personality. It's why they went and repeated the character again with T'pol. We had already seen one female ex Borg on "Voyager" in season 3 and they wrote her as a regular human being yet when they wrote Seven they choose to go with a more sexual personality.
I know some might argue that this isn't the case because Seven never seemed intrested in sex or romance for the most part but that is because we are still dealing with a family oriented show and you can only go so far in your efforts to sale the sex. All you really need is a catsuit and and a little subtext to get the message across.
For me I don't really mind when certain shows do try to have a sexy character. Sci-Fi space opera is more acceptable place than say a show like the "West Wing" as long as the show is well done and you still have a good core of talented actors and also actors who represent the other spectrum of humanity and that is older people and more real life looking and less Hollywood looking.
I just like the sexy character to be a little more subtle than what we got with Seven. I mean KIrk was meant to be sexy to women with his shirt being torn off all the time but that felt more natural most of the time and KIra's catsuit kind of looks like the regular Bajoran outifts and I never felt like the writers were trying overtly sale sex with the character.
All they really needed to do IMO was just make her catsuit look like it was Starfleet issue as if other people might be wearing similar outfits. Get ride of the heels(can say that about all female characters in Trek) and maybe not make her so robotic in how she deals with people.
Jason
It wasn't just the catsuit they were using to lure in horny teenage boys but the personality as well which is why they didn't go with a more everyone type of personality. It's why they went and repeated the character again with T'pol. We had already seen one female ex Borg on "Voyager" in season 3 and they wrote her as a regular human being yet when they wrote Seven they choose to go with a more sexual personality.
I know some might argue that this isn't the case because Seven never seemed intrested in sex or romance for the most part but that is because we are still dealing with a family oriented show and you can only go so far in your efforts to sale the sex. All you really need is a catsuit and and a little subtext to get the message across.
For me I don't really mind when certain shows do try to have a sexy character. Sci-Fi space opera is more acceptable place than say a show like the "West Wing" as long as the show is well done and you still have a good core of talented actors and also actors who represent the other spectrum of humanity and that is older people and more real life looking and less Hollywood looking.
I just like the sexy character to be a little more subtle than what we got with Seven. I mean KIrk was meant to be sexy to women with his shirt being torn off all the time but that felt more natural most of the time and KIra's catsuit kind of looks like the regular Bajoran outifts and I never felt like the writers were trying overtly sale sex with the character.
All they really needed to do IMO was just make her catsuit look like it was Starfleet issue as if other people might be wearing similar outfits. Get ride of the heels(can say that about all female characters in Trek) and maybe not make her so robotic in how she deals with people.
Jason
Then I'll respond to that with something I said earlier in this thread, too. Which is that I don't single out 7 for that, tight (cat)suits for Deanna and Kira were equally annoying to me. But perhaps one of the reasons that 7 did get more flak for it (justified or not) is that she replaced another actress in the series who did not, whereas those other examples (Kira and Troi) wore such outfits from the beginning, so that in the case of 7 it was perhaps perceived more a a conscious attempt to 'sex up' the show ?
Also, I stated that I agree that she didn't act like it, but that 'ice queen dressed in a certain manner' can still be used as a sex symbol.
Perhaps it would have been an interesting thought experiment to not cast Jery Ryan in Seven's role, but, say, the actress who played dr. Pulaski on TNG. Would she have been dressed in the same way by the producers, if the character she had to play was exactly the same?
Wasn't there a story that Jeri Ryan passed out or almost passed out because one of the earlier costumes was so tight?
Kes wore catsuits too
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