Resolution of Tholian Web

[UnknownSample]

Nearly a half century of watching this episode (taking the odd toilet break occasionally), and I'm no closer, really, to figuring out what the hell was supposed to be going on at the end. I thought I had it once, but no. Plenty of episodes have the odd detail that makes no sense , fine, dead lines were looming, mistakes don't get fixed, no time. . . But here we're talking about the culmination of the story, what it's all leading up to. They must have at least thought it made some sense.

Alright, we're thrown the "fact" that any use of power disturbs the unstable space. The danger? Either they'd be lost in the other universe, or they'd screw up making contact with Kirk. The former as it turned out I guess. Fine, I don't need to know why any use of power is bad. I guess.

The Tholians finish their web. Its purpose? A great big transporter to send the Enterprise to some secure place as a captured ship. I think.

So.. . web powers up. Though the Ent is meant to vanish, right when it's supposed to, it vanishes to someplace else. Presumably it's Kirk's private universe where the Defiant is, because they slipped through as the Defiant did. But not really. The Enterprise wasn't dissolving. The Defiant wasn't powering up when it went, either. So more than one way to cross over. Confusing.

So it's a black place without stars. If they'd detected Kirk and the Defiant in this void and beamed him aboard, fine, then they'd have to figure out some way to get back out of the empty universe.

Instead, they're in the black place a few seconds, then re-appear in normal space, somewhere away from the Web . It's only then that they see Kirk, who conveniently takes center stage right in front of them, right in the middle of the viewscreen. They have him there because he was caught in a transporter beam (when?) and carried along by it, to the regular universe. Did someone somehow forget to turn off the transporter after their last attempt? It caught him in the beam, but they didn't know? I'd almost say they were thinking of a tractor beam.

Spock "explains" : "By utilizing ship 's power we have been thrown clear of it ." Clear of the Web. How did they get back? Why another point in space?

Well, I'm done.

 

[Metryq]

Just because! Einstein, warped space—Lazarus could explain it. (After he falls off another cliff.)

 

[MarsWeeps]

It's a strange episode right from the beginning. For example:

CHEKOV: Captain. Visual detection of an object dead ahead.
KIRK: How about it, Spock?
SPOCK: Fascinating.
KIRK: Explain.
SPOCK: There is virtually no sensor contact. No mass analysis. No trace of radiation. We see it, but our sensors indicate it is not there.

So what happens next? They beam right aboard! All they have is a visual, no sensor contact, so how were they able to beam aboard?

 

[UnknownSample]

Yes, that seemed awfully rash. They did have those suits that presumably could protect them should the Defiant just disappear under them, or so they might have thought, but still...

 

[Marsden]

Nearly a half century of watching this episode (taking the odd toilet break occasionally), and I'm no closer, really, to figuring out what the hell was supposed to be going on at the end. I thought I had it once, but no. Plenty of episodes have the odd detail that makes no sense , fine, dead lines were looming, mistakes don't get fixed, no time. . . But here we're talking about the culmination of the story, what it's all leading up to. They must have at least thought it made some sense.

Alright, we're thrown the "fact" that any use of power disturbs the unstable space. The danger? Either they'd be lost in the other universe, or they'd screw up making contact with Kirk. The former as it turned out I guess. Fine, I don't need to know why any use of power is bad. I guess.

The Tholians finish their web. Its purpose? A great big transporter to send the Enterprise to some secure place as a captured ship. I think.

So.. . web powers up. Though the Ent is meant to vanish, right when it's supposed to, it vanishes to someplace else. Presumably it's Kirk's private universe where the Defiant is, because they slipped through as the Defiant did. But not really. The Enterprise wasn't dissolving. The Defiant wasn't powering up when it went, either. So more than one way to cross over. Confusing.

So it's a black place without stars. If they'd detected Kirk and the Defiant in this void and beamed him aboard, fine, then they'd have to figure out some way to get back out of the empty universe.

Instead, they're in the black place a few seconds, then re-appear in normal space, somewhere away from the Web . It's only then that they see Kirk, who conveniently takes center stage right in front of them, right in the middle of the viewscreen. They have him there because he was caught in a transporter beam (when?) and carried along by it, to the regular universe. Did someone somehow forget to turn off the transporter after their last attempt? It caught him in the beam, but they didn't know? I'd almost say they were thinking of a tractor beam.

Spock "explains" : "By utilizing ship 's power we have been thrown clear of it ." Clear of the Web. How did they get back? Why another point in space?

Well, I'm done.

You know, I read your post and it reads like your answering your own question, just take out your question marks.

I think it's specifically any use of power that is external of the ship, like engines or weapons. But my one explanation isn't very good because I didn't get the impression transporters would have been bad, or maybe the disruption would have occurred afterward and wasn't relevant to the rescue operation.

Also, and I've seen this in more than one episode, though I can't remember another example, sorry, is that the transporter is a multiphase thing that locks on to a person even though no beaming has started and they are saying that this "lock" was maintained, so not a tractor beam, but in his current state it seemed so.

So, discounting any other after the fact stuff, basically there is this other dimension that the Defiant slowly fell into, took Capt. Kirk with it, but then it (Defiant) left and he was alone not with the ship. Then because of the prior damage of ships moving through the area and weapons blasts, the Enterprise jerked right in without fading because of that damage, pulled a Tardis by escaping an inescapable trap by just not being there anymore, flew through this other dimension and then popped back out somewhere else far enough away to be safe yet still bringing the Captain outside the ship with them with that transporter lock. And then they beamed him in.
And none of that is clear from the episode but like the recent "showing not telling" thread was saying it worked without spending ten minutes telling us how so we could have fun figuring it out ourselves. I mean, if Mr. Spock says something, it must be logical. He knew what to do and he did it.

 

[spockboy]

Then because of the prior damage of ships moving through the area and weapons blasts, the Enterprise jerked right in without fading because of that damage, pulled a Tardis by escaping an inescapable trap by just not being there anymore, flew through this other dimension and then popped back out somewhere else far enough away to be safe yet still bringing the Captain outside the ship with them with that transporter lock.

What HE said.

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Spockboy

 

[UnknownSample]

What HE said.

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Spockboy

What do you mean? All we've done here is list the problems, the things that don 't add up. I'm still hoping someone will make some sense of it.

 

[Scotchy]

Kirk didn't necessarily go to the same universe the Defiant did. He could have been trapped halfway, gone to a pocket universe, etc. Space was somewhat fractured in that location. When that happens you can get interactions from more than one universe (an example being the multiple Enterprises in the TNG episode Parallels.)
The Defiant's ultimate destination is established and explained in the Season 4 Enterprise episode In A Mirror, Darkly. I thought their explanation made for the best two episodes of that series.

 

[CrazyMatt]

This script or the film itself was seemingly poorly edited in places, such as this pivotal scene:

SPOCK: Ready to transport on my order.
(Kirk appears on the viewscreen.)
UHURA: I see him.
CHEKOV: There he is!
SULU: It's the Captain. Sir, the tractor field is activating.
CHEKOV: We're being pulled out of here.
SPOCK: Try to maintain position Mister Sulu.
SULU: I can't, sir.
SPOCK: Engineering, bring ship's power up to full capability.
(There's a massive jolt, then the Enterprise disappears from inside the web and reappears in open space.)
UHURA: Where are we now, Mister Spock?
CHEKOV: Captain, we have destroyed the Tholians' web.
SPOCK: Negative, Ensign. Utilising ship's power has thrown us clear of it. Compute the distance from the original location.
CHEKOV: At once, sir.
UHURA: Have we lost the Captain?
SPOCK: We shall soon see, Lieutenant.
CHEKOV: The ship has been thrown exactly two point seven two parsecs distant from our previous position.
SPOCK: Good. Since the Captain was locked into our transporter beam when we were thrown clear of the interphase area, he should've been drawn here with us.

BUT.... according to the dialog, Kirk wasn't locked in any transporter beam when the Enterprise was "thrown clear." Did they edit the line about beaming Kirk aboard before the "throwing clear" event?

(transcript courtesy of chakoteya.net)

 

[Marsden]

Unless, Ready to transport on my order includes locking the transporter beam.

Go get the car ready to go doesn't include the words, unlock the door, put the key in and start the engine, but that's what a person ordered to do that would do. Kyle locked on to the Captain and he got pulled along, something I didn't think a transporter lock was capable of doing, but that's what Mr. Spock said.
I wouldn't go against a Vulcan when transporters are on the line.

 

[Xotika]

This script or the film itself was seemingly poorly edited in places, such as this pivotal scene:

SPOCK: Ready to transport on my order.
(Kirk appears on the viewscreen.)
UHURA: I see him.
CHEKOV: There he is!
SULU: It's the Captain. Sir, the tractor field is activating.
CHEKOV: We're being pulled out of here.
SPOCK: Try to maintain position Mister Sulu.
SULU: I can't, sir.
SPOCK: Engineering, bring ship's power up to full capability.
(There's a massive jolt, then the Enterprise disappears from inside the web and reappears in open space.)
UHURA: Where are we now, Mister Spock?
CHEKOV: Captain, we have destroyed the Tholians' web.
SPOCK: Negative, Ensign. Utilising ship's power has thrown us clear of it. Compute the distance from the original location.
CHEKOV: At once, sir.
UHURA: Have we lost the Captain?
SPOCK: We shall soon see, Lieutenant.
CHEKOV: The ship has been thrown exactly two point seven two parsecs distant from our previous position.
SPOCK: Good. Since the Captain was locked into our transporter beam when we were thrown clear of the interphase area, he should've been drawn here with us.

BUT.... according to the dialog, Kirk wasn't locked in any transporter beam when the Enterprise was "thrown clear." Did they edit the line about beaming Kirk aboard before the "throwing clear" event?

(transcript courtesy of chakoteya.net)

The most unexplainable in all of this to me was Chekov calling Spock "Captain" when they are already certain that Kirk is not dead. Real wtf moment - or maybe a sign that the crew is not so loyal to Kirk after all...

 

[johnnybear]

And we didn't learn anything about The Tholians either well not until Commander Riker mentions them a hundred years later and says that if they're involved then The Klingons will become involved as well! Strange, were The Tholians and Klingons enemies or what?
JB

 

[Gary Mitchell]

Whoever is in command is addressed as captain even if they are a different rank, at least as far as I know.

 

[Marsden]

Whoever is in command is addressed as captain even if they are a different rank, at least as far as I know.

Also, this quote:

SPOCK: Doctor, I am in command of the Enterprise.

Spock was the Captain from that point on until Jim was rescued, or if that didn't happen, until Starfleet had him come in and possibly assign a new one.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

"The Tholian Web" proves that a bottle show, done entirely on standing sets and with no guest stars, can be a great episode, full of drama. Fans like the Enterprise interiors and the regular cast. But I don't think this episode saved much money, because the visual effects were so elaborate.

 

[Maurice]

None of the interphase stuff makes much sense.

 

[Xotika]

Also, this quote:

SPOCK: Doctor, I am in command of the Enterprise.

Spock was the Captain from that point on until Jim was rescued, or if that didn't happen, until Starfleet had him come in and possibly assign a new one.

That's another one that didn't make much sense. They are acting from the premise that Kirk is still alive and can be saved and still hold a funeral for him. In the middle of hostile situation, faced with unknown enemy and with half the crew going mad. Way to shoot the crew morale all the way down, and for no apparent reason as Spock is not doing anything he couldn't do while being in temporary command.

 

[Push The Button]

In BOBW, Starfleet promoted Riker to captain while Picard was still alive (though Borg-ified as Locutus), he was even wearing the fourth pip on his collar, so I have no problem with the crew addressing Spock as captain in this situation.

 

[Xotika]

In BOBW, Starfleet promoted Riker to captain while Picard was still alive (though Borg-ified as Locutus), he was even wearing the fourth pip on his collar, so I have no problem with the crew addressing Spock as captain in this situation.

The difference is, here Spock promoted himself, and with rather undue haste that wasn't nesessary. (I know it was done to have a reason for conflict with McCoy but we're looking for in-verse explanation )

 

[Marsden]

I really don't think Spock promoted himself, but he was in command.

Let me say it this way. An individual can be the "Captain" of a ship and not hold the rank of Captain. Many smaller ships do have an officer holding the rank of Lieutenant or Commander as the Captain of the ship and they are addressed as Captain in that capacity.

And since Jim was declared dead, even if we didn't believe it, being dead disqualifies him for continuing to be the Captain.


I also want to mention, Dr. McCoy was a lot more hostile to Spock because of the effects of the space on him, he even says so one time. I know some people use this episode to declare the character to be to grouchy or nasty, but it's really not typical for him, even in Galileo Seven when he's nitpicky and riding Spock in the first half, it's really to equals with one in command and the other giving him a hard time because he can rather than actual insubordination. I guess this paragraph is OT now, there was a thread about this somewhere not too long ago.