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What is the age of the Enterprise (NCC-1701)?

Well I believe the material of FASA and Franz Joseph. I respect that you may not.

Just a thought about this, while I was looking through my Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joesph. The Federation-class dreadnaughts, which were created by Joseph, weren't even appropriated for until Stardate 6066 by Starfleet. Which means they wouldn't have began construction until after the end of TOS.
 
1. There was no refit, except in the "pocket universe" where TMP takes place. (See below.)
2. This doesn't change the fact that there was a mistake: 13 + 15 = 28, plus the fact that the ship wasn't brand new during the Talos mission makes it probably >30.
3. Relativity, people! The Enterprise being operational for 20 years (as perceived by someone on the ship) is not going to perfectly line up with 20 years having passed on Earth. No version of Star Trek even attempted to reconcile calendars; indeed this is probably why "star dates" were invented - to obscure the whole problem.
4. The writers of TSFS should have given this some thought and written around the need to specify the number of years the Enterprise had been in service.

The refit versus no-refit question comes down to this, as I wrote on some earlier thread: The reason the Enterprise of TWoK is now a training vessel is that it really is an older design - one that happens to look like the refit seen in TMP (on the outside, anyway), but that's coincidental. The TWoK ship is simply the TV Enterprise but with better detailing. Or to look at it anther way, it's unreasonable for the "almost entirely new Enterprise" of TMP to serve as a training vessel only 5? to 10? years later; this in turn is evidence for the view (which I share) that - despite the Star Trek Chronology, etc. - TWoK and TMP share no continuity whatever, despite cost-saving measures such as reuse of the Klingon ship and space dock footage. The elapsed time is between "Space Seed" and TWoK, not between TMP and TWoK; in fact there is no measurable elapsed time between TMP and TWoK.
 
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Decker tells Kirk that she is "an almost entirely new Enterprise" after the '18 month refit' Scotty mentions. Seriously, they go to some lengths to verbally acknowledge the ship being rebuilt from the frame up in the movie.
 
Just a thought about this, while I was looking through my Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Joesph. The Federation-class dreadnaughts, which were created by Joseph, weren't even appropriated for until Stardate 6066 by Starfleet. Which means they wouldn't have began construction until after the end of TOS.
I am so sorry.

@PhaserLightShow
 
The refit versus no-refit question comes down to this, as I wrote on some earlier thread: The reason the Enterprise of TWoK is now a training vessel is that it really is an older design - one that happens to look like the refit seen in TMP (on the outside, anyway), but that's coincidental. The TWoK ship is simply the TV Enterprise but with better detailing. Or to look at it anther way, it's unreasonable for the "almost entirely new Enterprise" of TMP to serve as a training vessel only 5? to 10? years later; this in turn is evidence for the view (which I share) that - despite the Star Trek Chronology, etc. - TWoK and TMP share no continuity whatever, despite cost-saving measures such as reuse of the Klingon ship and space dock footage. The elapsed time is between "Space Seed" and TWoK, not between TMP and TWoK; in fact there is no measurable elapsed time between TMP and TWoK.
I see where you're coming from here, because TWOK pretty much does pretend TMP never happened, along with most of subsequent Star Trek.

But in the other hand, it obviously did happen, and isn't irreconcilable with TMP. Another 13 years have passed, far longer than the time between Turnabout Intruder and The Motion Picture. I don't have too much of a problem with the idea that the thirty year old Enterprise, a decade out from her refit, has been relegated to a training ship.

But it's not just any training ship, it seems to be the best of the crop, a kind of advanced officer training school, at least for Lieutenant (not Cadet) Saavik and the other officers in red shirts. I've had the idea that the Enterprise wasn't being relegated to training duty, but readied for the next phase. They were training her next crew, to take over, perhaps as a special training programme of Spock's design. Bones asks "Wouldn't it be easier to put an experienced crew back on the ship?" suggesting that they are going to stay with her, not just doing a stint to tick some practical training boxes on the Academy syllabus.

The damage against Khan, and the death of Spock mean Starfleet can disperse the crew who know too many awkward things about Genesis, and quietly decommission the ship and sideline Kirk into a desk job.
 
But in the other hand, it obviously did happen, and isn't irreconcilable with TMP.

Or at least TOS obviously did happen, and thus omitting TMP doesn't really "help" with anything.

it's unreasonable for the "almost entirely new Enterprise" of TMP to serve as a training vessel only 5? to 10? years later

Not really. Refitting ITRW is typically a sign of desperation, of something being fatally wrong with the old version, and there being no funds or political capital to build an actual replacement. And it's fairly seldom that the refit actually helps. Yet if Kirk's ship turned out to be a turkey after the TMP refit, at least Starfleet might have learned a lesson or two, and performed better refits on the rest of the Constitutions, including the ship that eventually became the Enterprise-A. Leaving the runt of the new class as the training unit would nicely reflect real-world practices on such things.

I've had the idea that the Enterprise wasn't being relegated to training duty, but readied for the next phase.]/quote]

That works fine. It's not as if we would ever learn that the Enterprise in ST2 would have "become a training ship" in so many words or by any decisively identifying factors, or that she would have lost her ability to be completely different things in different episodes of TOS.

The damage against Khan, and the death of Spock mean Starfleet can disperse the crew who know too many awkward things about Genesis, and quietly decommission the ship and sideline Kirk into a desk job.

Kirk supposedly had one to begin with - Academy Commandant, perhaps? ST3/4 put paid to the sidelining idea - but letting Kirk influence class after class of future Starfleet officers might have been a bad thing, too...

Timo Saloniemi
 
A "refit" in Navy parlance means to prepare and equip for additional use through re-equipping and resupplying, which can mean changing out and repairing equipment in terms of upgrades or to meet changed mission parameters or uses of a vessel.

Refitting is not necessarily or even likely a "sign of desperation". Sheesh.
 
Didn't the US Navy equip a load of mothballed Second World War battleships to fire cruise missiles in the eighties, to cover a perceived (but totally illusory) "naval gap" with the Soviets? It was to provide a stopgap until the next batch of ballistic missile submarines were ready to sail IIRC.
 
I actually always found the year TMP is supposed to take place a bit odd. 2273 is only four years after the last episode of TOS, yet in the real world ten years had passed. Meanwhile TWOK is in 2285, supposedly twelve years after TMP, yet in the real world on three years had passed.

This raises the question what happened in those twelve years between TMP and TWOK? Who commanded the Enterprise? Surely not Kirk, he was an admiral (sure, for some bizarre reason he took a temporary downgrade to captain for V'ger crisis, but it is hardly temporary if it would last for years.) Maybe Spock? Or some other person we've never heard about.

It would flow more smoothly if TMP took place in a year better correlated to the real passage of time, so about 2280. This would allow Kirk to command two more five-year missions before TMP (as a captain) and then Spock to gain the command after it.

Furthermore, having a new (or just refitted) ship as a training vessel is not necessarily odd. SF was doing a major technological overhaul at the time, and they wanted their elite officer students to be familiar with the new stuff.
 
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Yeah, TWOK takes a big leap to catch up with the real ages of the actors - Shatner and the rest don't look like only a couple of years have passed since Turnabout Intruder when we see them in TMP. It would have even better to start TMP by saying ten years have passed, and it wouldn't have made any real difference to the story.

I like the idea of Decker, a newly promoted captain, being selected to replace Kirk. The dynamic was good - how would Kirk have felt if Pike turned up on his first day of command and told him he was taking the ship back?
 
Where from are the dates for these events anyway? They're not stated on the screen, are they?
 
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I think the only calendar date is from Q2, which says Kirk's five year mission ended in 2270. TMP states the Enterprise has been undergoing 18 months of refitting. We know that TWOK is fifteen years after season one of TOS, and set after 2283 - "a while" after, unless Bones is ironically remarking about the young vintage of the Romulan Ale).
 
And Kirk mentions being behind a desk for "two and a half years" by the time of TMP, given he had to have time to be promoted and reassigned give it about three years post five-year mission from that line alone.
 
Quoting from Roddenberry in The Making of Star Trek: Star dates were invented to get around the problem of episodes being shown "out of order" and had the side benefit of obscuring the relativity problem:

Unfortunately, however, the episodes are not aired in the same order in which we filmed them. So we began to get complaints from the viewers, asking, "How come one week the star date is 2891, the next week it's 2337, and then the week after it's 3414?"

In answering these questions, I came up with the statement that "this time system adjusts for shifts in relative time which occur due to the vessel's speed and space warp capability. It has little relationship to Earth's time as we know it. One hour aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise at different times may equal as little as three Earth hours. The star dates specified in the log entry must be computed against the speed of the vessel, the space warp, and its position within our galaxy, in order to give a meaningful reading." Therefore star date would be one thing at one point in the galaxy and something else again at another point in the galaxy.

I'm not quite sure what I meant by that explanation, but a lot of people have indicated it makes sense. If so, I've been lucky again, and I'd just as soon forget the whole thing before I'm asked any further questions about it.​

Thinking of the passage of time in terms of "years" only became an issue starting with TMP, because that's when the Enterprise first visited present-day Earth (other than between episodes). Yes, of course "years ago" appeared in dialogue in occasional episodes, but that's not the same thing as counting from a baseline number; also it would have been confusing to speak in terms of "star date units ago" and not worth the trouble to do so.

All I'm saying is that any effort to make a coherent chronology is futile. (Especially any effort to prove that there was a time lapse, or continuity of any sort, between TMP and TWoK. Other than Vonda McIntyre's novelization of TWoK -- which occasionally throws in a reference to Deltans, etc., but also has Spock's coffin burning up while entering the Genesis planet's atmosphere -- what non-retroactive, circa 1982, indication exists that TWoK is a sequel to TMP?) Just enjoy what you can of the various episodes and movies, and if at one time in your life you cared enough to have purchased the Star Trek Chronology and now you don't care any more -- or vice versa -- that's OK too.

(Making of Star Trek excerpt is from Memory Alpha, which I trust to have gotten it right; I bought my own copy of the book in 1969, but at this moment I'm too lazy to look for it and verify the quote.)
 
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Or, you know, production order. Something they had to content with then but not now. Bending over backwards is never pretty.
 
I think the only calendar date is from Q2, which says Kirk's five year mission ended in 2270. TMP states the Enterprise has been undergoing 18 months of refitting. We know that TWOK is fifteen years after season one of TOS, and set after 2283 - "a while" after, unless Bones is ironically remarking about the young vintage of the Romulan Ale).
Ok. So nothing on screen would actually contradict TMP being in 2280. I think this goes to my headcanon.

But where are the commonly referred dates for the films even from? Okudas' 'Star Trek Chronology'?
 
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Ok. So nothing on screen would actually contradict TMP being in 2380. I think this goes to my headcanon.

Several admittedly illegible LCARS displays on TNG, DS9 VGR and Daniels super baffling nusea inducing chrono wall all give Gregorian dates for the TOS era with most dates spelled out by year, but not day or month.

Icheb specifically gives the date in Voyager that TMP happens, but ignore that if you must.
 
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