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Chakotay and Seven Romance

Kilana2

Vice Admiral
Admiral
Am I the only one who thinks that Chuckles and Seven were an odd couple? Not as odd as Seven's holodeck fake date arranged by the Doctor, but anyway......

There was Seska who turned out to be a big failure for Chakotay, but his romance with Seven seemed to be forced. On the other hand, Kim would have been a much worse choice for Seven. He would have been out of his depth.

luckily they split up later in the novels.....


Any thoughts?
 
Pretty much everyone who has ever watched Voyager feels the same way. They had no chemistry. There's a rumor that Robert Beltran complained so much about his lack of character development that in order to shut him up, they gave Chakotay a romance with Seven.

But I've also heard that neither actors had any idea of an impending romance and both were stunned.

Either way, I like to pretend that it didn't happen. Or that Chakotay was having a mid-life crisis.
 
It's not like Chakotay hasn't deserved a partner. But it's not Seven. Good friends, yes. Nothing more.
 
Said it before and I'll say it again, the writers knew that admiral Janeway's actions in Endgame were utterly ridiculous so to try and justify her insane time meddling, they gave her three favourite shipmates horrible endings (Chak, Seven & Tuvok). She now at least has a (hugely irrational) reason to do what she did but it's still terrible writing.

What makes it laughable is that all these things were last minute issues. Tuvok's brain disease, Seven's death and Chakotay's heartbreak and eventual death.

Had there been signs of a romance between Chak & Seven in earlier seasons and had Tuvok mentioned in season one or two that his mental faculties would deteriorate, I might forgive them but it's all just invented last minute in Endgame to justify her bizarre time-travel shenanigans.

Shoddy.

I still like Seven with Chapman.

And i think Chakotay should have probably developed a romance with Janeway.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that Chuckles and Seven were an odd couple? Not as odd as Seven's holodeck fake date arranged by the Doctor, but anyway......

There was Seska who turned out to be a big failure for Chakotay, but his romance with Seven seemed to be forced. On the other hand, Kim would have been a much worse choice for Seven. He would have been out of his depth.

luckily they split up later in the novels.....


Any thoughts?

I would say its the other way around. I would think it would be harder to find someone who thought they were a good couple. It wouldn't have been so bad if they had sub plots and teasers here and there over the season (as they did for Tom and B'Elanna during Season 3) but there was none of that.

I had heard that TPTB were tired of Beltrans' complaining as well and slapped that on him...but why punish poor Jeri with that?

Yay for the novel verse. Its canon I tell you!
 
It was certainly an unexpected plot contrivance. It would have been nice to see how it started, instead of just popping up out of the blue. Perhaps it should have have developed slowly over the course of seasons six and seven. They were never really even friends before, were they?

However, I don't understand everybody's hang-up about "chemistry," which I see as just some shallow magical Hollywood mumbo-jumbo that's supposed to make everything fall into place easily and perfectly with no effort, and doesn't have any place in real life. So if this nebulous and ill-defined thing called "chemistry" isn't readily apparent in an on-screen romance, that actually makes it more realistic and less "Hollywood" to me.:shrug:

Kor
 
So if this nebulous and ill-defined thing called "chemistry" isn't readily apparent in an on-screen romance, that actually makes it more realistic and less "Hollywood" to me.:shrug:

Kor


But less pleasant for some people to watch. They watch for the 'spark' or that instant connection between the characters which I agree is nebulous and subjective. Two people can watch the same couple in a show and one of them can see hot steamy chemistry while the other one is thinking 'awkward!" It is an endless source of amusement for me.
 
Stage chemistry doesn't mean on the romance level. Stewart and deLancie had chemistry.

Seven's predicted death came out of the blue in the episodes, perhaps foreshadowed in "Imperfection" and "Human Error", but Braga claimed he always intended for the character to die, perhaps before it was cast.
 
It was certainly an unexpected plot contrivance. It would have been nice to see how it started, instead of just popping up out of the blue. Perhaps it should have have developed slowly over the course of seasons six and seven. They were never really even friends before, were they?

However, I don't understand everybody's hang-up about "chemistry," which I see as just some shallow magical Hollywood mumbo-jumbo that's supposed to make everything fall into place easily and perfectly with no effort, and doesn't have any place in real life. So if this nebulous and ill-defined thing called "chemistry" isn't readily apparent in an on-screen romance, that actually makes it more realistic and less "Hollywood" to me.:shrug:

Kor

This isn't just a Hollywood thing. One thing I remember from my Theater Appreciation class is that when they hold exercises for a pair of actors, chemistry is a key thing they look for. And that covers both romance and friendships. Chemistry is probably as old as drama itself. Yes it is nebulous but so is the concept of "fitting into the culture" at work. People get rejected from jobs for reasons like this all the time.

But less pleasant for some people to watch. They watch for the 'spark' or that instant connection between the characters which I agree is nebulous and subjective. Two people can watch the same couple in a show and one of them can see hot steamy chemistry while the other one is thinking 'awkward!" It is an endless source of amusement for me.

Ah, the origin of shipper wars.
 
I never really thought Robert Beltran had much chemistry with anyone. He was one of the more wooden actors that Trek ever cast, so the idea of him having a romance at all felt very contrived to me.
 
Watching Seven suck sauce from Chakotay's creepy little finger while he wore the world's most heinous waist coat was a step too far.

Stop that!

Stop that right now!
 
It really doesn't bother me at all for a number of reasons. Just about everyone in the crew had close connections whose absence had been eating at them for seven years. There had to be expectations of joyous reunions and after the hubbub died down returning to living the lives they were used to before having embarked on their three hour cruise.

What did Seven have to look forward to, coaxing out childhood memories with Aunt Irene? I shouldn't cavalierly dismiss the significance of her having some family and the possibility of creating a meaningful connection there. But aside from this tenuous tissue, there was the more overarching issue of whether she would be able to decide her own fate or if such disposition would inevitably wind up in the hands of Starfleet Command with consequences ranging from the merely onerous to distinctly unpleasant. I think Seven had such musings throughout the trip home, although they may have only been infrequently articulated. Despite her undeniable, if fitful, recovery of her human sensibilities and nature and concomitant bonding with others, I still feel that the options she may have perceived would be open to her were still very much an open question.

As to that long struggle to achieve a considerable degree of individuation, I think the arrival at Earth demanded that Seven be "rewarded" for her own. personal tortuous journey.
If she wasn't going to be killed off, she deserved an accomplishment that reflected the fruits of freedom and the acceptance and embrace of a consciousness so long denied.
What form would such a boon take? Advanced work on a technological marvel that would ensure winning the Daystrom Prize? Laying the template for the cure of many remaining human illnesses through the use of her nanoprobes?

No, whatever good might come to humankind through the application of her vast base of knowledge and the ability to utilize it successfully, it seems to me that the only sensible denouement to her trek would strictly be on the personal level, by means of developing and falling into an intimate romantic relationship. Developing, as in a goal to be planned and achieved, expressly finding a partner with whom she could reveal and share her growing sensuality,as well as someone who she could respect for not being intimidated by her intellect and persona.

After all, this was the culmination that Seven was being directed towards by Janeway in emphasizing the value of trust in human interactions and of course, by the Doctor in his cultivation of the ideal of the primacy of a romantic partnership. His lessons ultimately hit home, but of course, the success was a pyrrhic one. Seven would never view him in that light. So, if the object of her search would be a member of the "family", granted not an absolute necessity, but most likely seen as fitting as a crowning marker as she arrives in the bosom of humanity.

Now as to the criticisms of the relationship being an intuitive mismatch and a precipitous one at that, I think one can counter with several salient points. Obviously, there's no need to question Chakotay as having to be the object of Seven's romantic aspiration; there are no other possible candidates. But looking at the particulars that mitigate the universal distaste of the decision, you can look back to the beginning to see how the thread of interest may have begun.
I have been struck by the duality illustrated in one of the pair's first scenes together, when Seven goes off on her discourse of the ultimate failings of the human means of communication and democratic determination. On the surface, this certainly served to validate Chakotay's surety of the danger of the Borg's presence. However, both in his demeanor while receiving this rebuke and his repetition of the gist of the remarks to Janeway, I see something of a type of respect for Seven's recognition of a kind of truth in her characterization of how human interactions often play out.
Also, while I don't believe he ever states it directly, I wonder if the neural connection that was shared in Scorpion, while obviously devised to neutralize Seven as a threat, left a lasting impression of care and interest with Chakotay, though perhaps a consciously imperceptible one. I would suggest as well that his experiences in Unity naturally would make him more sensitive, even if briefly, to personally appreciate the quality of the connectedness that forged the direction of Seven's existence.

As for Seven, I think she perceived Chakotay as a man of integrity, who said what he meant to communicate without unnecessary elaboration, and had a quiet yet decisive strength (of course she wasn't privy to a lot of those increasing incidences of acquiescence that took place in the Ready Room or elsewhere out of her sight). As far as the nagging issue of chemistry is concerned, I don't believe that Seven would necessarily have an innate appreciation of its significance in a potential relationship as she approached her practice in the holo-deck with a retention of the Doctor's formulaic lesson plan. She plainly saw Chakotay as physically attractive, but the real expression of the flowering of spontaneous desire and want only reached fruition when she brooked any remaining doubts and initiated her pursuit of the relationship in the real world (my opinion). For Chakotay, I don't think I can recall any articulation of an ideation of what he would consider the qualities inherent in a potential mate, but there certainly was no sense that he didn't find Seven physically desirable and wouldn't have been anything but open to be presented with a ready made opportunity to express that ardor.

Finally as for the supposed abruptness with which the affair was presented, aside from the cues that I have mentioned, I don't know that I see many comments that attribute much significance to the quality and bond that was certainly evident in Natural Law. An experience, I think of signal importance that, granted, was near the end but was clearly not left to the final chapter.
I think a lot of the criticism, perhaps left directly unsaid, is the final disappointment of J/7 shippers who hoped for some miraculous resurrection of a dream that was long since extinguished as a realistic development. For me, the resolution as presented was certainly plausible and from the standpoint of the show runners deciding to show Seven's ultimate triumph in conventional, yet meaningful terms, was perhaps nearly inevitable.
 
For the record I did not ship 7 with anyone....and I still didn't like it.

I believe Jeri and Robert asked the director how they should play their scenes in Natural Law and they were told to play it straight as in no romantic overtones.
 
Pretty much everyone who has ever watched Voyager feels the same way. They had no chemistry. There's a rumor that Robert Beltran complained so much about his lack of character development that in order to shut him up, they gave Chakotay a romance with Seven.

But I've also heard that neither actors had any idea of an impending romance and both were stunned.

Either way, I like to pretend that it didn't happen. Or that Chakotay was having a mid-life crisis.

My recollection is that both actors were in fact frustrated because they *did* call it early, having seen a subtext in the script for the episode ''Natural Law'' (where Seven and Chuckles are stranded together for a while after a shuttle crash), and each had asked the producers if they should play it like a budding romance, only to be specifically told not to... and then, upon discovering in the series final that they were going to be paired up, Beltran and Ryan were both pissed off that they might've had the chance to seed the romance a little earlier than they did, if only the producers had've actually let them play it that way more back in ''Natural Law''.

As it is, the 'romance' just suddenly appears out of nowhere, and the audience were left scratching our heads.
 
For the record I did not ship 7 with anyone....and I still didn't like it.

I believe Jeri and Robert asked the director how they should play their scenes in Natural Law and they were told to play it straight as in no romantic overtones.

I agree that it wasn't presented with romance as the backdrop, or even with it as a presentiment.

I think it plausible, however, to suggest that the episode is significant as it has them working in close quarters in a testing situation, needing them to crucially rely on each other, and from Seven's perspective, seeing how Chakotay relates to the Ventu with great sensitivity and establishes a meaningful rapport. I think the combination of these factors might very well have gone a long way to confirm to Seven that Chakotay is indeed who she wants to commit her romantic aspirations to and translate those desires into action just a short time down the line.:techman:
 
I hated it. Just hated it.

Felt like it was another slap from the writers. Give the Mary Sue a romance (taking the man who had never been interested in her but had been in Janeway all along).

It was *almost* as bad as the finale.
 
By S7 I hadn't been following VOY as religiously as I had in the beginning, but did tune in for "Endgame". When their 'romantic scene' appeared I had a serious WTF? moment, believing I'd missed out on that development over the course of the season. After a bit of reading though I discovered that I hadn't missed the build up, but that it had just appeared out of thin air for the finale.

Everything about it just felt forced and lacking any kind of believability.
 
Seven rejected the Doctor's romantic advances. The Doctor is more like a friend or a teacher for her. I don't see him as a potential partner for Seven either.

I don't think that Chakotay/Beltran was wooden. But he wasn't able to exploit his full potential.

Come to think of it....... Seven's interactions with Holo-Chuckles were also weird.
 
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