Star Trek: Axanar

[Warped9]

When evaluating a product, comparisons with other supposedly similar products are inevitable.

True.

Yet all someone did was state a preference for Axanar over Abrams' work and an insinuation was made that someone with such a viewpoint lacked perspective. The point was countered and subsequently the discussion took an off-ramp.

Good lord.

Someone compared Axanar to everything Abrams has done in his career. It may not have been intended to sound that way, but that's how it was read. One 20 minute fan film against not only those loathesome (LOATHESOME!!) Trek movies, but also Alias, Lost, Fringe, Super 8, Alcatraz, Undercovers, Felicity, Regarding Henry, Mission: Imossible III, Armageddon, Person of Interest, Believe, Revolution, Cloverfield, What About Brian, The Pallbearer, and Forever Young (among others) and oh yes, the new Star Wars.

Suggesting that a 20 minute fan film is better than the combined work of the career of one of the most prolific auteurs working in television and film today (whether you like his work or not) demonstrates a profound and obvious lack of perspective.

It still boils down to an opinion. True, he didn't say Abram's "Trek" work specifically, but given the context of the discussion it was damned obvious thats what he meant. But someone did feel compelled to challenge that viewpoint.

Furthermore what if he did indeed mean all of Abrams' work? It still doesn't invalidate his opinion of preferring someone else's work over Abrams'. There are producers and directors and actors that people throughout the general public don't care for. Indeed we see that expressed often particularly when we hear advance news of casting choices for films and series in development.

The point is he made a side comment of preferring someone's work to Abrams' and someone else couldn't let that go unchallenged and felt compelled to make an insinuation about gazomg's perspective.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

...none of us have copyright lawyers on speed dial.

I do.

Okay, Maurice does.

But the REST OF US don't have copywright lawyers on speed dial.

 

[TerryMcIntosh]

Don't want to get "Clintonian" about semantics, but I'm genuinely curious what the definition of "independent" is, in this context, to both sides of the argument.

It's such a generic and ambiguous word, it could mean anything, and anyone could refute it equally.

By definition all fan films are indie, because they're made outside of the industrial studio system. That said, some (I haven't decided if I'm one of them yet) then choose to differentiate based on perceived quality or resources available for production on what might be considered "fan film" or "independent film."

In the end it really doesn't matter to me either way, because it's the same amount of work to make it no matter what label is taped on. =)

AFAIK, in common usage "Independent films" are produced with the intention of marketing/selling them to consumers. If not for profit, at least to compensate the production costs and the time/effort of the actors and crew. Fan films, by contrast, are vanity projects and aren't intended to make anything back.

If I understand the situation, technically you couldn't actually SELL copies of Axanar without getting sued into oblivion by an unholy alliance of CBS, Paramount, Bad Robot, Steve Inhat's ghost and Harlan Ellison's mother in law. So to the extent those labels are not totally arbitrary anyway (and they mostly are) it would still be considered a "fan film" of the "Nya nya, we did it just for fun so you can't sue me!" variety.

Correct. We cannot, for example, start shipping boxes of blu-rays to Amazon or Target to sell on the shelves, since that would be blatant profiting off of IP that we do not possess a license to sell. But, CBS allows us to give away copies to those that donate to the production. I've found that there is the occasional person that can't wrap their head around that in my travels, but they're pretty rare. In the end, whatever CBS says that fan films have to do is what needs to be done and done without discussion. It's their sandbox and we're just uninvited guests that are tolerated as long as we observe the posted rules.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

All I've been trying to say is that, unless ratification doesn't operate the way it does in the real world, and given that the vote has already been cast, getting the council to change their mind can't be enough to stop Vulcan's secession. Yet that's Soval's goal as laid out in the scene. To prevent Vulcan's secession, he must also stop the ratification process.

Exactly right. And he knows this is just about impossible to do, just like he knows that if he DOESN'T find a way to do it, the Federation is going to fall apart.

It's a classic no-win scenario.

Again, if the story doesn't involve Soval pleading to multiple independent sovereigns not to ratify the council's vote because the council will vote again to change its mind, then the far simpler change is to simply have the final vote not yet taken in the council.

That or Vulcan actually DOES secede and Starfleet shows up to save them from a Klingon invasion anyway, an act of sacrifice and loyalty that leads to the Council repealing the resolution and returning to the Federation.

Or some other similar crisis that results in an extraordinary reversal of fortunes. Whatever happens, it's probably either during or immediately after the ratification process and certainly disruptive enough to throw the entire legislative process into complete chaos. In either case, the likely culprit is "OMG!!! Klingons!!!!"

Yes, that makes perfect sense, except for one thing. Thank you.

What doesn't make sense is repealing the resolution. If the old resolution were ratified, what they would have to do is adopt a new resolution re-admitting Vulcan to the Federation, which would get quickly ratified. If the old resolution were not ratified, it would die right there, Vulcan never having left the Federation.

 

[Maurice]

The only thing missing from that scene was Natalie Portman and mention of the Trade Federation.

(Stipulated, however, that any scene filmed without Natalie Portman in this day and age can fairly be said to be "missing" Natalie Portman. )

Not "meow" per se. Lengthy walk n talk about boring politics (telling not showing) + fully CGI enviro = Star Wars prequel look and feel to a lot of people. That's the vibe I got watching it. YMMV.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Furthermore what if he did indeed mean all of Abrams' work? It still doesn't invalidate his opinion of preferring someone else's work over Abrams'. There are producers and directors and actors that people throughout the general public don't care for.

And someone who specifically dislikes all of the work of a particular person, regardless of content, context or quality, is called a hater.

Perhaps You know Russian Epic of "Cinderella...."

There is a difference between criticism and simple stubborn resistance to change. NuTrek haters -- and they ARE that -- fall into the latter category. They have no OPINIONS about the films, just a general emotional reaction to those films not being exactly like the old ones in some (to them) extremely important way.

 

[JoeZhang]

I am sick of a few people continuing to backhand complement Axanar by emphasizing "fan film", as though any production not coming out of Big Hollywood must forever be consigned to the "little kid's table". Axanar is proving otherwise.

I don't see how? The production values are first rate for a fan film but the dialogue so far is a mixture of the turgid and the mundane. I mentioned this when the Prelude came out and was told "oh the film is different" but the first filmed scene seems to more of the same.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

All I've been trying to say is that, unless ratification doesn't operate the way it does in the real world, and given that the vote has already been cast, getting the council to change their mind can't be enough to stop Vulcan's secession. Yet that's Soval's goal as laid out in the scene. To prevent Vulcan's secession, he must also stop the ratification process.

Exactly right. And he knows this is just about impossible to do, just like he knows that if he DOESN'T find a way to do it, the Federation is going to fall apart.

It's a classic no-win scenario.

Again, if the story doesn't involve Soval pleading to multiple independent sovereigns not to ratify the council's vote because the council will vote again to change its mind, then the far simpler change is to simply have the final vote not yet taken in the council.

That or Vulcan actually DOES secede and Starfleet shows up to save them from a Klingon invasion anyway, an act of sacrifice and loyalty that leads to the Council repealing the resolution and returning to the Federation.

Or some other similar crisis that results in an extraordinary reversal of fortunes. Whatever happens, it's probably either during or immediately after the ratification process and certainly disruptive enough to throw the entire legislative process into complete chaos. In either case, the likely culprit is "OMG!!! Klingons!!!!"

Yes, that makes perfect sense, except for one thing. Thank you.

What doesn't make sense is repealing the resolution. If the old resolution were ratified, what they would have to do is adopt a new resolution re-admitting Vulcan to the Federation, which would get quickly ratified. If the old resolution were not ratified, it would die right there, Vulcan never having left the Federation.

Either one makes sense, IMO. A resolution rendering the previous resolution null and void wouldn't be that hard to punch up if they had a good reason, which they obviously will. If the crisis point happens earlier, before ratification is complete, then they just forget about the whole thing and it's business as usual.

Either way, the Council winds up changing its collective minds. Given the gravity of this decision, something extraordinary must have happened that made them completely reverse their decision. The question is, WHAT?

 

[TerryMcIntosh]

The only thing missing from that scene was Natalie Portman and mention of the Trade Federation.

(Stipulated, however, that any scene filmed without Natalie Portman in this day and age can fairly be said to be "missing" Natalie Portman. )

Not "meow". Lengthy walk n talk about boring politics (telling not showing) + fully CGI enviro = Star Wars prequel look and feel to a lot of people. That's the vibe I got watching it. YMMV.

In the end the story will be as tight as it can be, and from the script as it is now it's going to be a pretty darn tight story that focuses on the characters and their drama and not just be something like a PEW-PEW-PEW fest, although there's going to be some serious carnage, for sure.

No matter what we do there are going to be folks that object for whatever reason, because we could say "water is wet." and there would be those that disagree over whether it's actually wet, that it's too wet, that the water is polluted, that the temperature of the water isn't to their liking, or that they were splashed by the water.

Our goal is to make the best story that we can, and considering the budget that we're going to have to work with in any case, folks are encouraged to surpass us, in story, visuals, and production value, at their convenience, because we'd want to watch that ourselves! =)

 

[gazomg]

To every abrams fan hurt by my opinion


I have watched the abrams trek movies, and did not like them for multiple reasons and if you actually read my posts you would have seen that.

Instead you like others are acting like you have no life and are personally offended by I having the audacity to share my own opinion.You might not agree with it but to disparage people for having one only serves to show you up.

I cannot comment on Abrams other tv stuff, seeing as I have never watched them shows, would be pointless of me to criticize something I have not watched, so instead I base my opinion on the stuff I have seen, the trek movies and they sucked in my opinion.

I do not look forward to the next one with any anticipation, like I do with Axanar.

If you cannot accept that then it is you that has the issue not I.

How you and others manage to get through life must be a living miracle seeing as other peoples opinion has such a devastating effect on you.

Here is a thought, stop mentioning abrams, get over it, move on and it will all go away, or keep dragging it up,

 

[Crazy Eddie]

To every abrams fan hurt by my opinion...

I also doubt any Star Trek fans (that IS you are actually addressing here) were actually "hurt" by your opinion any more than anyone was hurt when I farted in a crowded elevator last week.

OTOH, I realize that not everyone in that elevator likes the smell of my farts, so it's probably not very polite to let one rip unsolicited.

I do not look forward to the next one with any anticipation, like I do with Axanar.

 

[Ithekro]

(Stipulated, however, that any scene filmed without Natalie Portman in this day and age can fairly be said to be "missing" Natalie Portman. )

Not "meow". Lengthy walk n talk about boring politics (telling not showing) + fully CGI enviro = Star Wars prequel look and feel to a lot of people. That's the vibe I got watching it. YMMV.

In the end the story will be as tight as it can be, and from the script as it is now it's going to be a pretty darn tight story that focuses on the characters and their drama and not just be something like a PEW-PEW-PEW fest, although there's going to be some serious carnage, for sure.

No matter what we do there are going to be folks that object for whatever reason, because we could say "water is wet." and there would be those that disagree over whether it's actually wet, that it's too wet, that the water is polluted, that the temperature of the water isn't to their liking, or that they were splashed by the water.

Our goal is to make the best story that we can, and considering the budget that we're going to have to work with in any case, folks are encouraged to surpass us, in story, visuals, and production value, at their convenience, because we'd want to watch that ourselves! =)

The screenplay writing teacher did say one thing over and over again in college. "Show not Tell" Do not assume your audience is dumb and have to explain everything to them, but your writing must be detailed enough to show the audience what is going on without resorting to just having the characters describe things to them.

I will admit that I was not as good at this because I don't write characters very well. My focus was always world building and never got a handle on the human touches.

 

[gazomg]

To every abrams fan hurt by my opinion...

I also doubt any Star Trek fans (that IS you are actually addressing here) were actually "hurt" by your opinion any more than anyone was hurt when I farted in a crowded elevator last week.

OTOH, I realize that not everyone in that elevator likes the smell of my farts, so it's probably not very polite to let one rip unsolicited.

I do not look forward to the next one with any anticipation, like I do with Axanar.

Seems you are another who struggles with the English language.
Disliking something does not mean hate.

But hey, why let the truth get in the way to you bitching over my comments
Post childlike pics, its about your forte alright.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Seems you are another who struggles with the English language.
Disliking something does not mean hate.

And yet making a point of disliking something because of personal animus towards the person who made it makes one a "hater."

But I'm a good sport. Go ahead and tell me all the things you don't like about Star Trek and why Axanar is so much better than anything filmed before.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's going to kick ass and I'm sure I'm going to enjoy it immensely when I see it. But I'm not the one claiming it's going to vindicate my personal hatred of, say, Star Trek: Voyager.

Post childlike pics, its about your forte alright.

Trying to relate to you on your own level.

Perhaps I should switch to nursery rhymes?

 

[Harvey]

Sorry, Dennis, but the evidence of history once again is not with you. Countless interviews and documents and audio commentaries on Trek videos all talk about GR's desire to produce a show that was literate as well as "action-y". Solo, Justman, Coon, Fontana, even Gerrald have talked about this in their interviews, etc.

In a battle of all those worthies vs you, I go with the people who were there and helped GR do it.

Most of the production documents I've seen stress the action adventure format and reaching a mass audience above all else. There are multiple documents from Roddenberry reminding people that they were making an action adventure show, not a social issues program like The Defenders.

 

[gazomg]

Seems you are another who struggles with the English language.
Disliking something does not mean hate.

And yet making a point of disliking something because of personal animus towards the person who made it makes one a "hater."

But I'm a good sport. Go ahead and tell me all the things you don't like about Star Trek and why Axanar is so much better than anything filmed before.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's going to kick ass and I'm sure I'm going to enjoy it immensely when I see it. But I'm not the one claiming it's going to vindicate my personal hatred of, say, Star Trek: Voyager.

Post childlike pics, its about your forte alright.

Trying to relate to you on your own level.

Perhaps I should switch to nursery rhymes?

I dont have to justify my opinion to you.
Learn to accept and move on, dont let it eat away at you.


If you want to know why I dont like the abrams movies I suggest you go back through my posts to see why, as I am not going to do it for you.

I suggest you move on, lie down or do something, you whining is becoming boring.The faster you accept other people are entitled to their own opinion the faster you can move on and hopefully develop as a person.

This might be too much to ask, but how about we concentrate on Axanar instead .

 

[Mudd]

To every abrams fan hurt by my opinion...

No one's "hurt" by your opinion; it's not important or interesting enough to really engage.

It's just a nuisance to see uncritical boosterism of a fan project bounded by unobservant comparisons to much more sophisticated professional entertainment.

In any event, as to the clip itself: in both style and content it's remarkably similar to Star Trek:Enterprise, which is pretty impressive for a production with this budget. I can see why this appeals strongly to folks who'd like to see the Franchise return to the approach that Paramount took with it up until 2005.

 

[gazomg]

ok thanks

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Sorry, Dennis, but the evidence of history once again is not with you. Countless interviews and documents and audio commentaries on Trek videos all talk about GR's desire to produce a show that was literate as well as "action-y". Solo, Justman, Coon, Fontana, even Gerrald have talked about this in their interviews, etc.

In a battle of all those worthies vs you, I go with the people who were there and helped GR do it.

Most of the production documents I've seen stress the action adventure format and reaching a mass audience above all else. There are multiple documents from Roddenberry reminding people that they were making an action adventure show, not a social issues program like The Defenders.

For TOS, yes. But around the time of TMP he began shifting towards a grander and more idealistic notion and by the time he was back in the producer's chair for TNG he was all for showcasing his vision for a better brighter future for humanity.

And then they made "Code of Honor..."

I dont have to justify my opinion to you.

I know. In fact I would be very happy if you stopped trying.

If you want to know why I dont like the abrams movies I suggest you go back through my posts to see why

Yes, you made that very clear: because it's too different from what you're used to.

I'm not asking you to justify that. Just stop pretending like your opinion is some kind of profound revelation that the rest of us will be better off for having heard, again and again, as often as you decide to share it.

how about we concentrate on Axanar instead .

You have posted exactly one comment in the last ten pages that didn't mention Abrams.

Wanna maybe take your own advice?

 

[gazomg]

And still you continue to whine cos you did not like my opinion.
I actually pity you and people like you that cannot accept others having an opinion that differs.

You spend your time trying to coerce , change or disparage against those that dare to go against your opinion which you think is superior to everyone elses.

Not once has anyone said your opinion was wrong or questioned yours, yet you do not afford the same respect to others.
You think you are smarter, or clever when in fact you come across as a bitter frustrated childlike person who throws a strop cos someone said something you dont agree with.

Posting childlike gifs and pics is your idea of you being clever.
I could resort to making my own pics. in photoshop and really rile you up but its simply not worth the bother, I actually pity you