Bashir's genetic resequencing

[Darkwing]

At the time of the show, I thought the genetic resequencing referred to meant Jules went in, got some shots, and woke up as a smarter, better kid who ended up becoming Julian. I never really questioned this idea that he was the same kid, changed, not that he was a braintaped, improved clone. Only recently it struck me, for no apparent reason, that the reason resequencing was illegal was probably not because genetic improvement was *eeeeevilllll!*, but because the original was killed and replaced by the superior clone.
How many people thought at the time that Jules died so Julian could live, and how many thought Jules *became* Julian without dying? Who changed their mind (either direction?).

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Julian was the same person after resequencing as he was before, but he became a very different man than he would have become without it.

It's pretty clear in the show was the reason genetic resequencing is illegal was to prevent genetically engineered children from attempting to take over again.

IMO that was the worst storyline in DS9. They raised a topic then ignored the implications. Like, they didn't explain why the Romulans or Cardassians never tried to raise a super-army of genetically engineered people. They implied that every genetically engineered person is just super-happy with their position and none have ever left the Federation to live without limitation. They could have had Bashir raise the point that "The Dominion has an ENTIRE ARMY of genetically engineered soldiers and we illegalize it to make things more fair, ever wonder why we're losing?"

They raise this hugely loaded topic, ruining a character in the process, completely ignore all the obvious ramifications and play it for bad comic relief only.

 

[Melakon]

And Siddig didn't even know about it until he got that week's script, which was really a dirty trick. It retroactively affects how he played the character from the very beginning. The story made it clear Bashir knew all along, but Sid didn't.

 

[HIjol]

He was pretty good, and not at all Genetically Resequenced in "Vertical Limit". He had a relatively small part, but he did ok. Completely agree with the GR plot line being the Worst in DS9, or maybe sharing credit for the Worst, with the idea of transplanting Keiko's unborn into Kira.

IMHO

Love that Siddig's real kid is named "Django". Does that mean the next one has to be named "Unchained"?

Also love that his Maternal Uncle is Malcolm McDowall

 

[Melakon]

Sid's also in the dragon movie Reign of Fire. His character is unlucky though. He's also in 2005's Kingdom of Heaven. Most of his films seem to have him in small, but significant characters. Sounds like careful selection on his part.

 

[Kilana2]

Imagine that the Jack Pack is on the loose. Jack taking over Ops, Lauren taking over Quark's and Admiral Patrick as chief of security.....
It's odd but I liked the episodes with the genetically enhanced people. They exist and they have to deal with them. They can interact with each other but integration into society seems impossible.
I will see Sarina in the Litverse again and I'm happy about it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, look at what Jules may have turned out to be - the mirror universe Bashir. Obviously no Terran in that universe would have access to genetic engineering. So that may have been what Julian would have become as well, had he not done it...

 

[Kilana2]

Well, look at what Jules may have turned out to be - the mirror universe Bashir. Obviously no Terran in that universe would have access to genetic engineering. So that may have been what Julian would have become as well, had he not done it...

She novel "Cathedral" shows Julian...

Spoiler: Cathedral

....turning into Jules, losing all his superior abilities and reflexes. He feared never be able to work as a medical doctor again.

 

[hux]

It's pretty clear in the show was the reason genetic resequencing is illegal was to prevent genetically engineered children from attempting to take over again.

IMO that was the worst storyline in DS9. They raised a topic then ignored the implications. Like, they didn't explain why the Romulans or Cardassians never tried to raise a super-army of genetically engineered people. They implied that every genetically engineered person is just super-happy with their position and none have ever left the Federation to live without limitation. They could have had Bashir raise the point that "The Dominion has an ENTIRE ARMY of genetically engineered soldiers and we illegalize it to make things more fair, ever wonder why we're losing?"

I thought the complete opposite. I always wondered why other cultures didn't raise armies of genetically modified people but DS9 actually did a good job of explaining that the technology was simply flawed. The implication being that you ended up with unstable, dangerous and mentally unwell humans. DS9 was the show that clarified this (previous knowledge only really dealing with super-men) and explored the huge limitations of the technology.

DS9 also established that genetic engineering still went on. Predominantly with dire consequences but occasionally with success (how many others like Bashir got through the net?).

I think DS9 did a decent job of looking at the issue and filled a lot of gaps in our knowledge about that period.

As for Bashir, I never got the impression that genetic engineering changed people or replaced them with a new person as such. They just gave you access to human abilities that under natural circumstances, you would not have so easily been able to access. Julian was the same guy but with that access.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

He was pretty good, and not at all Genetically Resequenced in "Vertical Limit". He had a relatively small part, but he did ok. Completely agree with the GR plot line being the Worst in DS9, or maybe sharing credit for the Worst, with the idea of transplanting Keiko's unborn into Kira.

At least in that case, the writers had no choice. The actress got pregnant and it was that or have two pregnancies at once.

IMO, if there was a storyline as bad as GR, it was Moogie/Zek.

It's true DS9 portrayed GR technology as flawed, but given all we know about the Romulans and Cardassians, wouldn't they be willing to sacrifice their citizens on the mistakes to get the benefit of a few successes? Cardassian citizens would consider it their patriotic duty to take the risk, and failures would just be disposed of.

My problem with the Jack Pack episodes is more the way we see them treated like children. It's kind of a comparison to the way children with behavioral issues are treated in modern day. Kept aside, away from public view, treated like they are mentally incompetent, instead of giving them the help they need to assimilate. And the moral of the episode is that this is the correct way to treat them. That really, really bugs me.

 

[kkt]

We don't really know how many genetically modified people there are in the Federation, other than at least Bashir and the Jack Pack. And we don't know how many are able to assimilate into society, other than at least Bashir and Serina Douglas. Maybe the Jack Pack are just the tiny percentage that remain untreatable.

But the Jack Pack weren't ready to assimilate. Not ready to hold jobs, form relationships, or be held responsible for impersonating an admiral.

 

[Darkwing]

It's pretty clear in the show was the reason genetic resequencing is illegal was to prevent genetically engineered children from attempting to take over again.

IMO that was the worst storyline in DS9. They raised a topic then ignored the implications. Like, they didn't explain why the Romulans or Cardassians never tried to raise a super-army of genetically engineered people. They implied that every genetically engineered person is just super-happy with their position and none have ever left the Federation to live without limitation. They could have had Bashir raise the point that "The Dominion has an ENTIRE ARMY of genetically engineered soldiers and we illegalize it to make things more fair, ever wonder why we're losing?"

I thought the complete opposite. I always wondered why other cultures didn't raise armies of genetically modified people but DS9 actually did a good job of explaining that the technology was simply flawed. The implication being that you ended up with unstable, dangerous and mentally unwell humans. DS9 was the show that clarified this (previous knowledge only really dealing with super-men) and explored the huge limitations of the technology.

DS9 also established that genetic engineering still went on. Predominantly with dire consequences but occasionally with success (how many others like Bashir got through the net?).

I think DS9 did a decent job of looking at the issue and filled a lot of gaps in our knowledge about that period.

As for Bashir, I never got the impression that genetic engineering changed people or replaced them with a new person as such. They just gave you access to human abilities that under natural circumstances, you would not have so easily been able to access. Julian was the same guy but with that access.

So one person who sees it the way I saw it then. I never agreed GR was a bad idea, just that it should be limited to avoid unstable results. A touch of GR to remove the genes for MS or ALS from your DNA, a tweak to reduce aging (since Picard was supposed to be a *young* 50s, like 50 was supposed to be the new 30 in TNG), etc. Massive, overarching superman creation, with hyper-intelligence, increased strength and dex risked making folks like the Jack Pack or Khan, so you wouldn't want to allow that much GR. That's actually what got me to thinking and brought up the possibility that GR was illegal because it was replacement by clone.
So, who else saw it one way then, and the other way now? Who still sees it the same way?

 

[Terra Pryme]

IMO that was the worst storyline in DS9.

They raise this hugely loaded topic, ruining a character in the process, completely ignore all the obvious ramifications and play it for bad comic relief only.

Definitely agree. Especially with the fact there was absolutely no mention of the secret in the earlier episode "Distant Voices", when Julian was victim of a telepathic attack from a Lethean. That's certainly something the evil alien could have used against him.

DS9 also established that genetic engineering still went on. Predominantly with dire consequences but occasionally with success.

Even TNG seemed to indicate genetic engineering was still going on in the 24th century with episodes like "Unnatural Selection" and "The Masterpiece Society". For the admiral appearing toward the end of "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" saying it was outlawed since the Eugenic Wars was also a major continuity issue.

Like, they didn't explain why the Romulans or Cardassians never tried to raise a super-army of genetically engineered people.

Maybe they learned about what had happened with the Klingons when they tried to improve their race. Remember the Enterprise 2-parter "Affliction" and "Divergence", when their experiments resulted in the entire race looking almost human? I'll admit it looked a little rushed and convoluted, but it finally gave us the answer Julian, Odo, and O'Brien were looking for in "Trials and Tribble-ations" after Worf refused to discuss it.

 

[Kilana2]

Speaking of genetical engineering. The Founders are experts. They gave me my good looks after all .

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

@Kilana, in the spoiler you posted:

Spoiler: novel

Did Jules act anything like the MU Bashir did? Or can we just dismiss this, due to the tendency of humans in the MU to be violent thugs?

 

[Kilana2]

@Kilana, in the spoiler you posted:

Spoiler: novel

Did Jules act anything like the MU Bashir did? Or can we just dismiss this, due to the tendency of humans in the MU to be violent thugs?

Cathedral Bashir acted more like a Bashir self from a parallel universe who was never genetically enhanced. He became slow, weak and sluggish.
MU Bashir, by contrast, grew up in a violent universe and reacted accordingly.

I wasn't sure about the spoilers. Some people haven't read the DS9 relaunch novels. On the other hand they are old. Truth to be told: I read Cathedral twice, both in English and German.

Genetical enhancement is also mentioned in Section 31 Abyss. But that's a topic for the literature forum. Several month ago we had a genetical engineering discussion thread. Hmm, I'm too lazy now to look for it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

But the Jack Pack weren't ready to assimilate. Not ready to hold jobs, form relationships, or be held responsible for impersonating an admiral.

They clearly weren't ready, but they were also treated as a lost cause. I saw the doctors at the institute talking down to them like little children, not teaching them how to function independently.

Maybe they learned about what had happened with the Klingons when they tried to improve their race.

But given what we know about the Romulans, the Cardassians, their opinion about their own superiority and their treatment of their citizens, would the risk really stop them? And given what we know about Ferengi, wouldn't they attempt to increase their business intelligence and change the gender of their female children?

 

[Kilana2]

But the Jack Pack weren't ready to assimilate. Not ready to hold jobs, form relationships, or be held responsible for impersonating an admiral.

They clearly weren't ready, but they were also treated as a lost cause. I saw the doctors at the institute talking down to them like little children, not teaching them how to function independently.

As I mentioned, there was a discussion in the literature forum. Your argument was essentially what I brought up: no one was able to give them fullfilling tasks (except the occational problem solving tasks) or to use their abilities properly. They kept them seperated.
On the other hand. Find a task for them or a possibility for integration, I'm open for your suggestions.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Also, the fact that they were never charged with treason, while it certainly benefited them as it caused them not to be executed, suggests that they are not even considered having the mental faculties to be responsible for their own decisions.

A task for them? Literally just about anything that doesn't involve military secrets.

 

[T'Girl]

Even TNG seemed to indicate genetic engineering was still going on in the 24th century with episodes like "Unnatural Selection" and "The Masterpiece Society". For the admiral appearing toward the end of "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" saying it was outlawed since the Eugenic Wars was also a major continuity issue.

The Masterpiece Society is easy to figure in that it was a independent colony and therefor not subject to the laws concerning genetic modification. Unnatural Selection is a bit tougher, theirs might have been official research, with an specific exception from the law.

Also, the fact that they were never charged with treason, while it certainly benefited them as it caused them not to be executed, suggests that they are not even considered having the mental faculties to be responsible for their own decisions.

Each of them separately might have been previously deemed to be mentally incompetent, as such they wouldn't be legally culpable for their actions. They were already (iirc) confined to a roving mental institution.