Agents of SHIELD - Season 2 Discussion Threads. (Spoilers Likely)

[bbjeg]

^I caught the tank guy from TWD but missed the flag. I'll have to check that out later.

I liked this latest episode. It felt the most like a comic.

Fitz/Simmons side story about trust (in a secret organization) is interesting. They both make good points about Skye though but I think Thor is a better Avenger equivalent of Skye than Hulk. She effects nature and isn't brainlesss.

It's nice to see that woman who was in charge at the academy is still alive. I was wondering if she (and that guy who had intel up his nose) is still alive.

I also like Talbot's character. It's clear that his security sucks, but he's got some smarts (in his questioning at least, though the face pull was funny).

...
Well, we have no evidence that Gonzales's group are "good guys"...

Or bad guys. From their standpoint, Coulson is a loose cannon.

Gonzales's group is trying to take down the only organization that has been successfully fighting HYDRA and the other bad guys...

If SEAL team Six disbanded and a rogue group formed from it, taking down threats worldwide, they'd still be considered a threat. Fitz said it, they're vigilantes. I wish that 'Real Shield' group explained who was backing them though. At first glance, they seem as much as vigilantes as Coulson's team (transparent my ass, it seems Talbot doesn't know about them).

It seems like a fairly simple good vs. evil situation to me. Coulson isn't a danger to anything that isn't evil, and I think even Talbot actually knows that if he was forced to admit it, but the government is power hungry, and corrupt …

Talbot and co. have done nothing to show that they're corrupt.

...I have no doubt that, for example, Mac would slit Fitz's throat in his sleep if ordered to, without hesitation...

How the hell did you come to that conclusion. He not only expressed disdain to violence but he hasn't killed anyone yet.

It's no surprise that your latest post is negative. From your rants, it feels like you went into this latest episode looking for all the wrong things.

I don't think even Wolverine can survive being dissected and having his organs in jars, but maybe she's better at healing than that?

He survived a missile shot by Punisher into his stomach leaving everything burned down to his skeleton. His quite resilient.

That makes me wonder if one of these super healing people were chopped in half, would both halves grow back?

I assume the brain has to survive but theoretically, if you cut Wolverine in half vertically (somehow through his skeleton), you'd have a normal Wolverine with his memories and one without.

 

[Corran Horn]

Finally, it was bugging me all night, but I finally remembered where I saw that guy that sat at Gonzalez's right hand at the table, he was on The Walking Dead.

As well as Fringe and Band of Brothers.

 

[sojourner]

I see they are letting Olmos sleep through another acting role.

 

[ITL]

 

[Reverend]

One thing's pretty clear: even if that is a hellicarrier, it's not the same one from Avengers. That thing was noticeably bigger with split-level runways. So it's probably either an earlier model or just a normal (i.e. non-flying) carrier. Either seems possible given that the one in Avengers seems like it's meant to be brand new.

Actually, didn't we see The Bus land on a SHIELD carrier a few times back in season 1?

Still, it means that the Avengers one may still be out there.

 

[Sci]

The political situation has been getting more complicated for a while, and I'm very intrigued by this "real SHIELD" thing.

Given the reference to it being "real," in conjunction with the aircraft carrier, the flags, and the U.S.-style stars on the "real SHIELD" emblem, the implication seems to be that Gonzalez!SHIELD is operating under the authority of the United States government. Though that is not yet explicit; it's not completely clear yet under whose authority Gonzalez!SHIELD is operating.

ETA: Interesting side-note: One of the people in the meeting aboard Gonzalez's aircraft carrier was Anne Weaver, who in Season One was the Director of the SHIELD Academy of Science and Technology. We last saw her trying to survive Hydra's siege of the Academy in "Turn, Turn, Turn," warning Jemma not to trust anyone at the Hub, before her transmission was interrupted when Hydra agents breached her transmission room. Apparently she survived the attack on the Academy and has now joined Gonzalez's organization. I wonder if that means the SHIELD Academy is operating under Gonzalez's command? End edit.

Meanwhile, two weeks ago, we had someone in the Portuguese Prime Minister's office contacting Coulson!SHIELD, ordering Portuguese law enforcement to defer to Coulson!SHIELD on Lady Sif's custody, and allowing them to conduct an open investigation. And last week, we found out that Coulson!SHIELD was still running a small, high-security wing of a federal penitentiary for metanormal criminals.

All of which raises the question... Coulson!SHIELD was still supposed to be an underground organization. I suppose their taking down that Hydra mole in the Belgian cabinet must have gotten them a whiff of legitimacy, to prompt the Portuguese government to let them work on their soil. Though I find myself wondering how it is that SHIELD/Coulson!SHIELD kept running a wing of a penitentiary without the U.S. government being able to use that to smoke Coulson and company out back when they were still actively looking for them.

.... also, who's paying for everything in Coulson!SHIELD these days? Did Fury give them access to a huge secret Swiss bank account or something?

But this Gonzalez!SHIELD. It's an interesting question. Their actions in infiltrating Coulson!SHIELD are clearly aggressive (since Coulson never wanted to go underground in the first place and would probably jump at the chance to go legitimate again). But I can also see things from their POV. After all, even setting aside the question of Coulson's stability given the influence of Kree DNA on him...

... by what authority has Coulson!SHIELD been acting, anyway? I mean, the original SHIELD operated under a system of democratic consent and internationalism. Sovereign states (all democratic, so far as we know) worked together to create SHIELD and the World Security Council. SHIELD answered to the sovereign states for which it worked through the WSC, and through the WSC and those states, it answered to the peoples of those states. There was a clear system of democratic accountability -- the executive authority had been delegated to SHIELD by democratic consent, but SHIELD still (at least in theory) worked for the peoples of those states that were part of the WSC.

Now? Coulson isn't acting on any nation's authority. He's exercising the executive power, but he is doing so without it having been delegated to him by any the people or peoples of any nation. He isn't accountable to anyone but himself, and he's keeping himself underground, unaccountable to the government. He's become very much like Section 31 in Star Trek in that regard -- he takes the law into his own hands, and he sets himself up as judge, jury, and executioner. And he has access to incredibly powerful technologies.

I can easily see how the governments of the world could start to see Coulson!SHIELD as a threat to national security. He is, in any meaningful legal sense, as beyond the reach of the law as Hydra. His SHIELD, legally, is a conspiracy.

Now, we the audience know Coulson is a good guy. And we the audience go along with it because we know that Coulson is trying to rebuild SHIELD along more benevolent lines than the original organization, and we're hoping to see him make SHIELD legit again. But from the POV of U.S. President Matthew Ellis, who has already been the victim of two attempted coups d'etat? Who has basically been doing what Captain America decided needed to be done in CA:TWS -- bringing SHIELD down and its agents under control? I can easily see how he might not trust Coulson and might want to bring this very powerful rogue organization down.

kirk55555 -- your evaluations of Mack and Bobbi are ridiculously bloodthirsty and tribalistic. Seriously, you think they deserve to die for thinking that maybe Coulson doesn't have the right to put himself above the law? Yes, it's true that Gonzalez wants to bring Coulson's organization down. You know who else wanted to bring SHIELD down?

Captain America.

 

[Avon]

'we need to stop coulson for keeping secrets' say characters keeping secrets.

 

[Sci]

'we need to stop coulson for keeping secrets' say characters keeping secrets.

True! But there again, Coulson always talked about reforming the darker side of SHIELD... but here he is, locking up his de facto adopted daughter in a very nice rural prison cell.

No one's perfect. The question is, does this Gonzalez faction operate as an agency of a government or governments, or does it operate above the law the way Coulson's does?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Well, Coulson has a US flag in his office as well. The flag doesn't necessarily equate to legitimacy.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Finally, it was bugging me all night, but I finally remembered where I saw that guy that sat at Gonzalez's right hand at the table, he was on The Walking Dead.

Yep, that's Kirk Acevedo, Agent Tomas Oliver on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Aka Mitch Dolgen on The Walking Dead.

Actually, didn't we see The Bus land on a SHIELD carrier a few times back in season 1?

Still, it means that the Avengers one may still be out there.

Only once: in "End of the Beginning". Y'know, the Marvel Cinematic Universe wiki used to identify the aforementioned aircraft carrier as a helicarrier without any proof. Now it identifies the aircraft carrier as the one we just saw in "Love in the Time of Hydra".

 

[kirk55555]

kirk55555 -- your evaluations of Mack and Bobbi are ridiculously bloodthirsty and tribalistic. Seriously, you think they deserve to die for thinking that maybe Coulson doesn't have the right to put himself above the law? Yes, it's true that Gonzalez wants to bring Coulson's organization down. You know who else wanted to bring SHIELD down?

Captain America.

It was a completely different situation for Captain America. I'm sure he wouldn't be supporting Gonzales over Coulson right now. Its a SHIELD like Gonzales's that he'd probably be against. For all their talk of "transparency", they're more secretive than Coulson's SHIELD. As for Mac and Bobbi, them dying is what I want to happen, but I wasn't calling for an execution. Coulson's SHIELD will kill if they need too.

In a fight, May would kill Mockingbird or Mac if she had too, and them being traitors probably isn't going to get them light treatment when Coulson's SHIELD finds out. I want them "eliminated" quickly so they stop ruining the show, and hopefully Mockingbird will be taken out when she (apparently) tries to kill Coulson next week. I want Mac/Mockingbird gone with no chance of them appearing on the show again. They deserve to die because they are s^&t characters, and traitors who have been betraying the heroes and helping the villains. They don't have the history with the team or craziness that Ward has that makes him a somewhat interesting antagonist. They're irritating, expendable idiots. I don't think they will die, but I can hope. They're not doing anything but ticking me off by being on TV.

 

[Sci]

kirk55555 -- your evaluations of Mack and Bobbi are ridiculously bloodthirsty and tribalistic. Seriously, you think they deserve to die for thinking that maybe Coulson doesn't have the right to put himself above the law? Yes, it's true that Gonzalez wants to bring Coulson's organization down. You know who else wanted to bring SHIELD down?

Captain America.

It was a completely different situation for Captain America. I'm sure he wouldn't be supporting Gonzales over Coulson right now.

Oh, I think Cap was pretty clear where he stood. He thinks SHIELD is irredeemable in any form and needed to be torn down completely, not rebuilt or redeemed. Even if he knows Coulson is a good guy, there's a good chance he'd be opposed to Coulson's attempt to rebuild it.

Its a SHIELD like Gonzales's that he'd probably be against. For all their talk of "transparency", they're more secretive than Coulson's SHIELD.

They are more secretive towards Coulson's SHIELD.

On the other hand, it's pretty damn hard to run an aircraft carrier without the support of a government. If they're working for the U.S. government rather than trying to defy it the way Coulson's SHIELD does, then it's hard to argue that Coulson is more transparent than Gonzalez's.

But you're not acknowledging the basic question: By what right does Coulson operate, given that he is putting himself above the law and beyond the reach of the democratically-elected governments of the world? If Gonzalez's SHIELD answers to one or more democratic governments, how is his not more legitimate than the underground conspiracy Coulson is running?

 

[Reverend]

^By what right does Iron Man operate? Or Spider-man or Daredevil or just about every no-SHIELD superhero out there? They're all vigilantes and mostly they do what they do because nobody else can or will.

As for Gonzales's faction "only being secretive towards Coulson's SHIELD", that's just nuts. How can you keep yourself secret from a clandestine intelligence gathering operation *and nobody else*? Even if they just restrict it to only high level government & military and *somehow* keep it quiet, that's decidedly not transparent.

 

[Sci]

^By what right does Iron Man operate?

Well, up until the fall of SHIELD, he had legal cover as a SHIELD consultant; he was held accountable to the U.S. government both through SHIELD and by things like the subpoena to appear before a Senate committee, which he obeyed. As someone who acts in public, Tony Stark ultimately still has to act within the law. That's more than Coulson can say these days.

Or Spider-man or Daredevil or just about every no-SHIELD superhero out there? They're all vigilantes

Yes. They are, indeed, criminals and fugitives. Just like Coulson's SHIELD.

Which is why--if this new Gonzalez organization is a legitimate government agency--I can completely understand how they would want to take Coulson's organization down, without necessarily being themselves evil.

As for Gonzales's faction "only being secretive towards Coulson's SHIELD", that's just nuts. How can you keep yourself secret from a clandestine intelligence gathering operation *and nobody else*?

I see no reason to think that Coulson's SHIELD is a "candestine intelligence-gathering operation." It's an illegal cabal of former SHIELD agents who want to keep fighting Hydra and eventually go legit. But the idea that it's still the equivalent of the CIA is not supported.

It all hinges on whether or not Gonzalez's organization is a legitimate government agency. If they are--and it's hard to run an aircraft carrier without being such--then it would be perfectly fair of them to say that they are more transparent than Coulson's group, because at least they answer to the democratically-elected government.

 

[kirk55555]

Reverend basically said what I was going to say. Its a universe of superheroes, almost everyone is working without any kind of government obedience. Not following the letter of every single law doesn't make Coulson's SHIELD unique. In a world with the Avengers, plus numerous other heroes, focusing on Coulson's team with some kind of special distrust is stupid. Also, answering to a government doesn't make you transparent. That might make you transparent to that government, but that doesn't mean anything. SHIELD is not a US organization, and was never transparent to them. Not that any organization is transparent, if they were they'd be fairly useless.

Also, Coulson's right to operate comes from the fact that he's fighting threats only his team can handle, or at least only they can handle well. SHIELD in the MCU, when its fighting threats that aren't your average terrorists or stuff like that, needs its freedom. If the government had been in charge during Season 2 of AoS, the US government would probably be messing around in the inhuman city, Whitehall would be alive and with weapons, and things like the Sif/Kree incident would probably have ended very, very badly.

Its not about whether Coulson is obeying laws, its about what the right thing to do is. And in comics, working for governments almost never ends well, and Coulson's team definitely has the right idea in how they have to operate. If they had turned themselves into the government when they were ordered to (right after the Hydra stuff), thousands if not tens of thousands of people would be dead, and they'd all still be in deep, dark prison cells.

 

[JD]

I just want to poiint out one thing for starters. Mack and Bobbi are not traitors, they've been working for Gonzales this whole time. If they start really working for Coulson, instead of Gonzales then they would be traitors.
As for Gonzales, we still didn't see anything that would indicate they are bad guys, so far all we know is they don't trust Coulson because of all of stuff he's been doing lately.
We do see them fighting with Coulson's team next week, but that still doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know. I still wouldn't be surprised if by the time all is said and done, we see the two groups working together, or at least coming to some kind of understanding.

As for the episode itself I enjoyed it. It was a quiter episode, but I did enjoyed the stuff with Talbot, and it was nice to see what exactly Agent 33 and Ward are up to.
So I wonder if the end with them brainwashing Bakshi means they are going to start building their own group, or if that was just a one time thing with Bakshi?
The stuff with Coulson and Skye was nice. I think that was the first one-on-one scene we've gotten for them since the mid-season premiere.

 

[Sci]

Reverend basically said what I was going to say. Its a universe of superheroes, almost everyone is working without any kind of government obedience.

Not really. Until CA:TWS, the only superhero operating outside of the law in the MCU was the Hulk. Even Thor actually answers to the Asgardian government.

Not following the letter of every single law

There is a huge difference between not following the letter of every single law and actively running an underground security organization that answers to no one and puts itself above the law.

In a world with the Avengers, plus numerous other heroes,

So far as we know, the Avengers operate within the law.

Also, answering to a government doesn't make you transparent.

No. But it does make you more transparent than an organization that puts itself above the law and answers to no one.

SHIELD is not a US organization, and was never transparent to them.

No -- it was meant to be transparent to the U.S. and to the U.K. and to the French Republic and to the Federal Republic of Germany and to the Republic of India and to every other state that was party to the treaties that set SHIELD up.

Also, Coulson's right to operate comes from the fact that he's fighting threats only his team can handle,

So what? He's still putting himself and his organization above the law. He could handle those threats just fine if he were to come in and operate as a legitimate security agency.

Its not about whether Coulson is obeying laws,

Of course it is! I mean, think about this realistically. You and I know Coulson is a good guy, because as audience members are very nearly omniscient and know these things. But from an in-universe perspective, a rogue offshoot of a Hydra-infested security agency which operates outside of the rule of law, answers to no one, does whatever it deems necessary for planetary security, and has access to fantastical technologies? Of course democratic governments throughout the world would view such an organization as a threat to national security, as a criminal conspiracy not to be trusted!

I'm not saying Coulson is wrong to operate SHIELD as he's doing so, either. What I am saying is that, realistically, Coulson is a criminal. He is putting himself above the law and unanswerable to the peoples he believes he is serving, and so obviously other good people who believe in the social contract are going to view him as a threat to national security, as someone not to be trusted.

That doesn't make them bad guys, either. It means they believe in the rule of law and Coulson doesn't.

 

[Sci]

Let's consider a counter-scenario for the real world:

The FBI has been infiltrated from top to bottom by al Qaeda operatives. Roughly half of them were Qaeda, and that they try to seize control of every FBI building and operations team as a prelude to overthrowing the U.S. government and killing millions of people. They are thwarted (barely). The U.S. Congress responds by legally dissolving the FBI, and the President orders, say, the U.S. Marshal Service to seize its assets and bring its agents and employees into detention until they can be cleared.

However, one team of FBI operatives escapes, and meet up with FBI Director James Comey. Comey has faked his death, but he "appoints" the new team leader as "Director of the FBI." These people then evade police and the feds while continuing to fight al Qaeda, and claim that they have been really successful, even as they are wanted fugitives.

Would you actually want them to continue on underground? Or would you want them brought in? Be real, here. Do you really trust an organization with that kind of power to answer to no one but itself?

 

[DWF]

At the end of Iron Man 2 Stark told Fury that he couldn't afford him as a consultant, so no Stark isn't consultant. Only Cap., Hawkeye and The Black Widow worked for the government, the rest were vigilantes who were alloweed to operate as heroes, they kept a close eye on Banner.

Coulson is the hand picked successor to Fury, so any SHIELD not with him is be definition against him. There is only one SHIELD and Coulson is the director of it. The Council might've made the newer one, but that's only speculation at this point.

 

[Sci]

At the end of Iron Man 2 Stark told Fury that he couldn't afford him as a consultant,

Episode 1 of Agents of SHIELD asserted that he was a SHIELD consultant.

Coulson is the hand picked successor to Fury,

Fury has no right to make that decision. That would be like the Director of the FBI unilaterally appointing his successor. It's not how legitimate agencies work.