"Agent Carter" season one discussion and spoilers

[Reverend]

They hadn't broken away yet.

That was 24 hours away.

Maybe there's a better quote in there that will uphold the argument that SHIELD isn't allowed into Russia, or maybe there isn't, which is why I left a link to the transcript so that I didn't have to be the soul guardian of the truth here.

IAMTHEGUARDIANOFTRUTH!

You do realise that South Ossetia is a real place that is *really* disputed territory, yes? IIRC they declared independence some time back in the early 90's. What that quote sounded like is they they were intent of making everyone besides Russia recognise that fact. Short version: it's more or less the same situation as Eastern Ukraine, hence not wanting to tip off the Russians.

I mean, I think that begs the question of why he's addressed as "Mister Secretary" rather than as "Mister Secretary-General." And Councillor Rockwell could easily have been Canadian.

Because he's not a Secretary-General? Organisations can give their chief administrators pretty much any honorific they want. The fact that he's referred to Secretary at all as opposed to "Councilman" should be proof enough.
As for Rockwell: Why would a Canadian have an American accent? More to the point, why would the American's ever let the Canadians speak on behalf of the Americas in their stead? Of course by that logic one could just as easily ask why Europe would allow the UK so speak on their behalf. Perks of the "special relationship" perhaps?

 

[Marsden]

You do realise that South Ossetia is a real place that is *really* disputed territory, yes? IIRC they declared independence some time back in the early 90's. What that quote sounded like is they they were intent of making everyone besides Russia recognise that fact. Short version: it's more or less the same situation as Eastern Ukraine, hence not wanting to tip off the Russians.

Not to argue, but, South Ossetia is real but the situation is not. This is an independent group in South Ossetia that is not beholden to any other government. That's different from the Ukraine crisis and real South Ossetia which are Russian satellites inside foreign borders.

This is more like a militia in the state of Wyoming wants Wyoming to be it's own country and throw of the chains of DC's foul oppression with a super weapon.

Maybe a better real world analogy for Russia would be Chechnya which did not want to be part of Russia. Of course, I tend to not want to discuss real world problems in my fantasy discussion, so if my assessment is wrong, please forgive me.

 

[Sci]

My interpretation of that is the Russians don't want to have their own weapons detonated by these guys either so they are sending in SHIELD to eliminate that threat. They don't say they are pro Russian, they want to be independent of everyone. I think what's clouding things is that real world South Ossetia is apparently pro Russian, it's right there that:

declare their independence from Russia and Georgia.

That's not pro Russian.

That's a good point; it is possible that the South Ossetian independence movement in the MCU is about real independence rather than nominal independence as a Russian vassal state like it is in real life.

I suppose my biggest reason for suspecting that Russia is not part of the World Security Council is simply that we never hear any WSC members with Russian accents. I find it hard to believe that a representative of one of the most powerful -- and, under Putin, globally assertive -- nations on the planet wouldn't be speaking up during the Chitauri and Project Insight crises if there were a Russian member of the Council.

I mean, I think that begs the question of why he's addressed as "Mister Secretary" rather than as "Mister Secretary-General." And Councillor Rockwell could easily have been Canadian.

Because he's not a Secretary-General? Organisations can give their chief administrators pretty much any honorific they want.

Sure -- but then, what's the specific relationship between Pierce's position and the position of Director of SHIELD? I thought Nick Fury was the chief administrator.

The fact that he's referred to Secretary at all as opposed to "Councilman" should be proof enough.

Or it means he holds an office of the U.S. government in addition to holding a seat on the WSC.

As for Rockwell: Why would a Canadian have an American accent?

Canadians and Northern Americans have very similar accents; some of their accents can be virtually indistinguishable.

More to the point, why would the American's ever let the Canadians speak on behalf of the Americas in their stead?

Who said they did? Like I said, I always took Pierce to be the U.S. member of the Council. Under such an interpretation, Rockwell is speaking for Canada, just like Pierce is speaking for the U.S., Councillor Singh is representing India, etc.

Indeed, why assume that the Council members we saw in CA:TWS were representing continental regions rather than their own home countries?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Secretary could be a transitory position to which the council members take turns holding, if there isn't some "limited" version of an election to select who the next secretary is going to be. Councilmemberhood is probably an appointed position too (by the council members government), which means that council members can also be unappointed (by the council members government). So although the powerfulness of a country is sorta regular, the powerfulness of councilmembers is irregular.

shitty country + smart councilperson = grandmaster manipulator with nothing to lose.

Powerful country + idiot councilperson = Fearless abrasive asshole.

(Lots and lots of other possible combinations of surprising factors.)

 

[Reverend]

Sure -- but then, what's the specific relationship between Pierce's position and the position of Director of SHIELD? I thought Nick Fury was the chief administrator.

Fury was indeed the chief administrator *of SHIELD*. Pierce was the chief administrator of the World Security Council, which provided civilian oversight of that organisation.

Or it means he holds an office of the U.S. government in addition to holding a seat on the WSC.

Formal diplomatic protocol isn't known for being flexible. You address a person by their title relevant to a given situation because such modes of address are important. Presumably the other council members hold posts in their respective governments, and yet Pierce didn't address any of them as anything other that Councilman/woman and not once did that refer to him as such. The distinction was unmistakably deliberate.

Canadians and Northern Americans have very similar accents; some of their accents can be virtually indistinguishable.

Perhaps, but not *that* accent. Split hairs all you like, but the intent was perfectly clear.

Who said they did? Like I said, I always took Pierce to be the U.S. member of the Council. Under such an interpretation, Rockwell is speaking for Canada, just like Pierce is speaking for the U.S., Councillor Singh is representing India, etc.

So by that logic major players like France, Germany, Japan, Australia etc. have no involvement with the WSC or SHIELD? Doesn't seem likely, does it?
The national make-up of the council was clearly meant to represent the various member nations by four major regions: Europe, the Americas, East Asia and the Middle East/Africa. Yeah that last one is a bit broad, but it's not unreasonable given the politics, history and economics of that region. Indeed, it's likely that there are *very* few member nations out that way.

Leaving all that aside, it makes zero sense to allow a chief administrator to simultaneously oversee an international council *and* represent their own nation in any sort of official capacity. It's a clear conflict of interest.

 

[Anwar]

Wait, Alan Dale's character in The Winter Soldier was named Rockwell? He was one of the villains from the "Captain America No More!" storyline in the late 80s.

 

[Reverend]

^It wouldn't be the first time they recycled a name from the comic books for a character with little to no connection to it's namesake. That's assuming it's even intentional, I mean 'Rockwell' isn't that distinctive a name is it?

 

[Marsden]

I heard that Michael Jackson was his cousin and that's why he sang on his single.

 

[JD]

I just looked up the World Security Council and Pierce on the MCU wiki, and it does appear to treat Pierce as not being a member of the Council. It calls him Secretary to the Council, and it talks about the Council working with Pierce and Fury during the lead up to Project Insight. It also says that Rockwell is American.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^Of course he is.

 

[Skywalker]

I mean 'Rockwell' isn't that distinctive a name is it?

The guy who played Justin Hammer might have something to say about that.

 

[Anwar]

This is the Rockwell character from the comics.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/rockwelldoug.htm

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh, that's going way back.

Poor Johann just can't get a break.

His brain patterns are beamed into a clone of Captain America, but the first time he really opens up the engine, his new face is shrivelled back into a red Skull by some poisoned backdraft.

I'd almost wonder if the Beyonder had something to do with that, since it's his face too, and maybe the one from Beyond didn't want to share it with a complete ####.

I could never marry Beyonce Knowells.

It's just too much ####ing fun saying "This is my Fiancée Beyonce."

 

[The Old Mixer]

So I was just watching IM2....The movie establishes that Anton Vanko defected from the Soviet Union in 1963. I suppose it's possible that he was working for Stark in the 40s while still a Soviet citizen, but it seems a bit unlikely....

 

[Nerys Myk]

I was watching Broadchurch the other night and this one actor looked familiar but I couldn't place him. Then it dawne on me it was the guy who played Jarvis. Context is everything.

 

[Reverend]

So I was just watching IM2....The movie establishes that Anton Vanko defected from the Soviet Union in 1963. I suppose it's possible that he was working for Stark in the 40s while still a Soviet citizen, but it seems a bit unlikely....

The show is based in 1946 right? IIRC relations with the Soviets didn't completely deteriorate until '47 or '48 with the Berlin air lift. So it's just about plausible.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Yeah, I think it's plausible. Although it suggests that we won't see the character much more on the show. Still room for him on Ant-Man, but that loses the Stark/Vanko parallel. Then again, I don't think it was impossible for a Soviet citizen to come to the United States, so it's possible even after relations soured for him to be in the US (or for him to be here for a bit before finally succumbing to pressure to return home).

 

[Marc]

I was watching Broadchurch the other night and this one actor looked familiar but I couldn't place him. Then it dawne on me it was the guy who played Jarvis. Context is everything.

The actor playing Lee Ashworth did look vaguely familiar but never enough so that I looked him up.

Looked a lot older and didn't have the posh accent

 

[Marsden]

So I was just watching IM2....The movie establishes that Anton Vanko defected from the Soviet Union in 1963. I suppose it's possible that he was working for Stark in the 40s while still a Soviet citizen, but it seems a bit unlikely....

I see what your saying, but it's possible for a foreign national to be in the USA with a visa without defecting. Maybe he was being recalled in 1963 by the Soviet government and decided not to go. I think that counts as defecting.

Like that ballet dancer that came to New York for a performance but then didn't want to leave. I can't remember anymore about it.

I looked it up, Alexander Borisovich Godunov. I would never have remembered that, good thing Google has now replaced my memory.

We are the Google, resistance is futile.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Frankly, that's the easiest way to defect. Defecting by sneaking out of a country is kind of hard. Defecting by not going back is fairly easy.