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"Agent Carter" season one discussion and spoilers

There's nothing in Winter Soldier to suggest Hydra flat out controlled SHIELD (in fact, if it did, it likely would fire the people not loyal to Hydra). Hydra corrupted SHIELD, there is a difference. On top of that, their goal was to ferment chaos to encourage the nations of the world to support their plans for Project Insight. Given this, I think it's likely SHIELD wasn't the only organization they infiltrated. They easily could have infiltrated Russian national security as well.

This is what I got out of the movie too. They were basically double agents operating within the organization. In The Winter Soldier, SHIELD was shut down but that just means a lot of loyal agents lost their jobs or were transferred to other intelligence divisions.

Alexander Pierce, a Hydra Agent who hired Nick Fury, was Nick Fury's boss who controlled S.H.I.E.L.D. .

On the night of long knives it took minutes for Hydra to assume control completely, which it's conceivable that they could have done at any point in the last 40 years.

Trillions of dollars of S.H.I.E.L.D. money was spent to make super hellicarriers for Hydra to complete Hydra's plan to take over America. Imagine if North Korea tricked America into building them hundreds of new ICBMs and then to selfnuke the home of the brave? How much Bullshit across what sort of timeline would that require?

To maintain their invisibility, Hydra had key non Hydra assets in positions all over S.H.I.E.L.D. including Nick Fury who they could eliminate or convert as soon as the moment was chosen to strike.

Nick Fury didn't have to be given orders by Hydra to be a warmongering unstable #### sending the planet to the edge of an extinction event because he was naturally a warmongering unstable #### sending the planet to the edge of an extinction event, and it's why he was hired to be a warmongering unstable #### sending the planet to the edge of an extinction event because they needed a warmongering unstable #### sending the planet to the edge of an extinction event.

Maybe it's like when Doctor's used to prescribe that pregnant women smoke cigarettes to increase their constitution during pregnancy. They smoked as hard as they could, as often as they could because it increased the health of their child and increased the likelihood of a safer birth... Although to completely follow that simile, it would imply that Doctor's from the 1950s knew that cigarettes stunted foetal develpment and were carcinogenic.
 
There's nothing in Winter Soldier to suggest Hydra flat out controlled SHIELD (in fact, if it did, it likely would fire the people not loyal to Hydra). Hydra corrupted SHIELD, there is a difference. On top of that, their goal was to ferment chaos to encourage the nations of the world to support their plans for Project Insight. Given this, I think it's likely SHIELD wasn't the only organization they infiltrated. They easily could have infiltrated Russian national security as well.

The fact that the Winter Soldier, who from all observations (his arm, preferred ammo and use of Russian language) would seem to have been a Soviet operative, was truly a HYDRA agent, would attest to that.
 
I'm not convinced Russia had a seat on the World Security Council. I doubt SHIELD would have been launching air strikes on pro-Russian separatists in "The Hub" if they had.
 
The KKK is Pro American and Pro Christian.

Just because someone is pro Russian, Mother Russia itself doesn't always have to be happy about it.
 
True enough, but it fits HYDRA's M.O. to infiltate, corrupt and utilize the resources of a pre-existing agency. Remember at the end of the movie, Natasha gave Steve the Winter Soldier file after "calling in a few favors from Kiev." The fact that the official file on the Winter Soldier existed at all would indicate that he was outwardly a Soviet agent secretly controlled by HYDRA.
 
Did you notice the Red Star painted onto the side of his robotic arm?

Soviet Symbolism.

There's an episode of Doctor Who set 100 trillion years into the future, and the good guys are armed with kalashnakovs (AK 47s.). Do we assume that they are Russian or that Russian hardware (hardware design) simply traded hands across the universe for a hundred trillion years?

Bucky was probably sold, like any number of suitcase nukes (if you believe the urban legends) as the Soviet Union broke apart in the 90s. Don't think of him as a person. His brain was pulled apart and put back together again to answer orders. He's machine that was sold, andsold and sold again until Hydra owned him.
 
Alexander answered to two masters, but Nick Fury didn't seem to have any other immediate superiors.

Fury would report to the World Council rarely and if they do want to send him explicit orders outside of their star chamber, those order would most likely come through Robert Redford in a manner that Bob feels expedient.

When Pierce gave orders to Nick Fury, they could have as easily come from Hydra or the World Council, but Fury foolishly assumed that all the orders given to him by Pierce were form the World Council.

Chain of command.

If there's a problem in the Hellicarrier mail room, does the World Council step in?

Unlikely. 40 levels below Nick Fury handles that shit.

If Maria Hill is being a problem does the World Council step in?

More Likely, but that's really a Nick Fury problem.

If Nick Fury is Being a problem does the world council step in?

Only if Alexander Pierce cannot handle the situation himself.

(This is me just being logical, I'm sure you could form a counter argument that sees their organizational structure differently, and I would enjoy to hear it.)
 
So what, he had a horrendous case of food poisoning, and was doubled over the throne during the Battle of New York? Great timing, Alex! :devil:
 
Hmmmm?

Alternate theory.

Each member of the World Security Council has it's own answer to S.H.I.E.L.D. and together they protect each part of the world they are responsible, while fussing about exactly what parts of the world overlap into each others protection.

Which would explain why S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't allowed into Russia.
 
So what, he had a horrendous case of food poisoning, and was doubled over the throne during the Battle of New York? Great timing, Alex! :devil:

The manager of an NFL Football team gathers together the best team s/he can for the money they have to work with.

The Coach then takes the team s/he is given and plays the shit out of it.

There's a little over lap and a manager can fire a head coach, but effectively they are separate departments who do not step on each others toes unless the team is shit enough that players have to be traded, or game theory has to be adjusted.

Alexander is the Manager.

Nick Fury is the head Coach.

S.H.I.E.L.D. is the football team players.

(Look at me talking about sports like it mattered! Wow!)
 
Alexander Pierce, a Hydra Agent who hired Nick Fury, was Nick Fury's boss who controlled S.H.I.E.L.D. .

I thought the Council controlled SHIELD.

Yes, and Pierce was the American member of the Council.

I'm pretty sure Alan Dale's character (Rockwell?) was the American representative on the council (as Powers Boothe probably was in 'Avengers'), while Pierce was the Council Secretary. As such, his nationality is probably about as relevant to the position is the UN Secretary-General's.
 
Hmmmm?

Alternate theory.

Each member of the World Security Council has it's own answer to S.H.I.E.L.D. and together they protect each part of the world they are responsible, while fussing about exactly what parts of the world overlap into each others protection.

Which would explain why S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't allowed into Russia.

Who the hell said SHIELD isn't allowed in Russia?

Phil Coulson said:
You're at 114 Solenski Plaza, 3rd floor. We have an F-22 exactly eight miles out. Put the woman on the phone or I will blow up the block before you can make the lobby.
 
Hmmmm?

Alternate theory.

Each member of the World Security Council has it's own answer to S.H.I.E.L.D. and together they protect each part of the world they are responsible, while fussing about exactly what parts of the world overlap into each others protection.

Which would explain why S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't allowed into Russia.

Who the hell said SHIELD isn't allowed in Russia?

Phil Coulson said:
You're at 114 Solenski Plaza, 3rd floor. We have an F-22 exactly eight miles out. Put the woman on the phone or I will blow up the block before you can make the lobby.

Not my argument, just facts others are hammering me with.

From the Hub.

Well, now that we've gotten that over with, here's what you can know.
The intel you recovered from Agent Shaw tells us that a separatist group from South Ossetia has built a weapon called "ezbiitomet.
" - The overkill device? - A little dramatic for my taste.
I imagine something was lost in translation.
We've intercepted chatter that tells us they plan to use the weapon in the next 24 hours to declare their independence from Russia and Georgia.
We believe it creates sonic vibrations powerful enough to trigger weapons from a great distance anything from the missiles on a helicopter to a nuclear warhead sitting in its silo.
So if we move on them, they could use our own weapons against us.
Exactly.
That's why I need a two-man team to sneak across the disputed border undetected, break into the separatist stronghold, and disable the weapon in the next 24 hours.
And you have two people who fit my bill.

Transcript of the entire episode s01e07 The Hub.

http://www.springfieldspringfield.c...?tv-show=agents-of-s-h-i-e-l-d&episode=s01e07
 
^Unless I'm misreading that, it's not saying that they can't get into Russia, so much as they have to get across a disputed border into a break-away state on the Russian/Georgia border.

That said I think it's safe to assume that given the history with Leviathan (and the implied history of Black Widow) that the Soviet Union was a primary antagonist and that while some in roads and co-operation may have come about after it's collapse, the Russian Federation never because a member of the World Security Council, just as in real life they never joined NATO.

Of course if they want to continue mirror current events, then it's conceivable that things have backslid in the last few years.
 
They hadn't broken away yet.

That was 24 hours away.

Maybe there's a better quote in there that will uphold the argument that SHIELD isn't allowed into Russia, or maybe there isn't, which is why I left a link to the transcript so that I didn't have to be the soul guardian of the truth here.

IAMTHEGUARDIANOFTRUTH!
 
True enough, but it fits HYDRA's M.O. to infiltate, corrupt and utilize the resources of a pre-existing agency. Remember at the end of the movie, Natasha gave Steve the Winter Soldier file after "calling in a few favors from Kiev." The fact that the official file on the Winter Soldier existed at all would indicate that he was outwardly a Soviet agent secretly controlled by HYDRA.

Interesting. I've heard several different fan theories about how Bucky fell into Hydra's hands. On the one hand, we do know that he was being brainwashed by Zola for Hydra apparently fairly early on; on the other hand, as you note, there was a file on the Winter Soldier's origins from Kiev.

My speculation is that perhaps Bucky was initially found alive by Soviet forces, and put into cryo-sleep until they could figure out how to weaponize him for their purposes. Some time by the late 1940s, I would assume that Hydra began to infiltrate the Red Army using whatever links they could find through Fennhoff, and from there that Hydra usurped control of the Winter Soldier program -- perhaps keeping it under nominal Soviet control, or perhaps bringing Bucky in to their own facilities away from the Soviets.

Alexander Pierce, a Hydra Agent who hired Nick Fury, was Nick Fury's boss who controlled S.H.I.E.L.D. .

I thought the Council controlled SHIELD.

The impression I got was that Alexander Pierce was both the United States Secretary of Defense and ex officio the United States Representative to the World Security Council. Certainly he seemed to have some sort of operational authority over SHIELD -- in Agents of SHIELD Season One, when May meets up with Maria Hill post-Battle of Triskelion, they describe Secretary Pierce as the only man able to give Director Fury orders.

Alexander answered to two masters, but Nick Fury didn't seem to have any other immediate superiors.

Fury would report to the World Council rarely

The MCU comics tend to imply he reports to them on a regular basis. So too does Captain America: The Winter Soldier; the Council seems to regularly examine SHIELD operations.

So what, he had a horrendous case of food poisoning, and was doubled over the throne during the Battle of New York? Great timing, Alex! :devil:

Who knows? Maybe Pierce wasn't a member of the World Security Council at the time.

The Battle of New York occurred some time in the summer of 2012. (4 May according to the MCU Wiki.) And of course, 2012 was a presidential election year in the United States. President Matthew Ellis appears to have won re-election that year, but it's very common to change Cabinet secretaries when a President's second term begins. Maybe President Ellis only appointed Alexander Pierce after his second term began in 2013.

Hmmmm?

Alternate theory.

Each member of the World Security Council has it's own answer to S.H.I.E.L.D. and together they protect each part of the world they are responsible, while fussing about exactly what parts of the world overlap into each others protection.

Which would explain why S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't allowed into Russia.

That's one possible interpretation. Or, maybe not so much that each member state has its own "answer to SHIELD" as that each one has its own division of SHIELD, integrated into their national chain of command in some way but answering to the Council. That might go a long way towards explaining why the SHIELD badges we see in Agents of SHIELD Season One have an emblem stylized after the U.S. flag in the center of the eagle, when SHIELD is constantly referred to as an international organization. Would also nicely explain why SHIELD is referred to colloquially as being "ours" in Captain America: The Winter Soldier--it's "ours" in the same way that NORAD is. It's an international defense organization, but it has a powerful U.S. division that's part of the U.S. defense system.

I thought the Council controlled SHIELD.

Yes, and Pierce was the American member of the Council.

I'm pretty sure Alan Dale's character (Rockwell?) was the American representative on the council (as Powers Boothe probably was in 'Avengers'), while Pierce was the Council Secretary. As such, his nationality is probably about as relevant to the position is the UN Secretary-General's.

I mean, I think that begs the question of why he's addressed as "Mister Secretary" rather than as "Mister Secretary-General." And Councillor Rockwell could easily have been Canadian.

Hmmmm?

Alternate theory.

Each member of the World Security Council has it's own answer to S.H.I.E.L.D. and together they protect each part of the world they are responsible, while fussing about exactly what parts of the world overlap into each others protection.

Which would explain why S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't allowed into Russia.

Who the hell said SHIELD isn't allowed in Russia?

Phil Coulson said:
You're at 114 Solenski Plaza, 3rd floor. We have an F-22 exactly eight miles out. Put the woman on the phone or I will blow up the block before you can make the lobby.

Who the hell said SHIELD was in Russia legally when Coulson made that threat? ;)

EDITED TO ADD:

Side-note:

Man, Matthew Ellis has to be, like, the unluckiest President in the history of the United States. Under his watch, the Chitauri damn dear destroy Manhattan, and then he suffers two different attempted coups d'etat in the span of less than eighteen months!
 
My interpretation of that is the Russians don't want to have their own weapons detonated by these guys either so they are sending in SHIELD to eliminate that threat. They don't say they are pro Russian, they want to be independent of everyone. I think what's clouding things is that real world South Ossetia is apparently pro Russian, it's right there that:

declare their independence from Russia and Georgia.

That's not pro Russian. And it would make that the Russian part of the council would want this rouge element eliminated from their border. HYDRA may have been feeding the tech to the group to see if they could perfect it for them while also creating a new threat, a threat that some insight helicariers could have eliminated without even working up a sweat if only we had such things, right? I think if any group had a weapon that could detonate your own nukes in their silos, you just might not want that out there.

Who the hell said SHIELD was in Russia legally when Coulson made that threat? ;)

EDITED TO ADD:

Side-note:

Man, Matthew Ellis has to be, like, the unluckiest President in the history of the United States. Under his watch, the Chitauri damn dear destroy Manhattan, and then he suffers two different attempted coups d'etat in the span of less than eighteen months!

Good point, Coulson could even have been bluffing.

Really! Ellis must feel like he's got a huge bulls-eye painted on his ass.
 
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