Hercules/Xena (Spoilers)

[kirk55555]

OVerall, this isn't as bad as The Bitter Suite ...

Out of curiosity, how would you know? You didn't actually watch that episode, as you'll recall ...

Well, I guess I mean its not as bad an idea as The Bitter Suite. Or maybe that, while its horrible, at least it wasn't done with costumes/sets stolen from a middle school play. It also didn't leave a huge storyline/set of events without resolution because the hack writers were to lazy to do anything except press the reset button on the problems that they had introduced to the show. But, since I actually do know the whole plot of the episode, if not specifics like the songs, I think I can definitely compare it to other episodes just based on its own content anyway.

It probably would have been more accurate to say that, while bad, Paradise Lost was at least self contained, and wasn't a specific middle finger to the viewers. The Bitter Suite is the worst episode of the show (regardless of whether I saw it or not) because of the effect it had on the storyline it was supposed to be the resolution of. So, it became the episode I compare all bad episodes to. Basically,

An episode that "resolves" a huge storyline with hack settings/costumes/writing and a gimmick to cover up the lazy reset button at the core of the episode < Evil Yoga Instructor

The evil Yoga Instructor was stupid, but compared to the stupidest/laziest/most insulting episode of xena, its not quite as bad.

 

[kirk55555]

Devi (Xena) - This was a pretty mediocre episode. It had some ok parts (Xena's fight with a possessed Gabrielle was cool) but the overall story wasn't great. The demon possessed Gabrielle wasn't very interesting (until her fight with Xena at the end), and Gabrielle was pretty annoying with her attitude, too. Eli was an ok character, but he seems like he has the potential to be extremely annoying, and I'm sure if (or almost certainly when) he shows up again, I'll probably end up hating him. Overall this was better than the last few episodes, but it still wasn't good. I have a feeling that the episodes set in India are all going to be painful, I hope this little side trip is over soon.

 

[Forbin]

Eli becomes basically a Jesus substitute. Yeah, he gets annoying.

 

[kirk55555]

Eli becomes basically a Jesus substitute. Yeah, he gets annoying.

You were definitely right about that, unfortunately

Between the Lines (Xena) - This was complete c^%p. Xena and Gabrielle do stupid things, while also going forward into an indeterminate time in the future to fight a villain who beats them up by using old episode clips. There was also some reincarnation/spiritual stuff that might have been slightly interesting in a competent episode.

The Way (Xena) - This episode was somehow even worse. It reintroduces Eli as the avatar (but not a cool one like Aang, he's basically just the most pretentious jackass in the world) and makes me hate Gabrielle in a way I haven't felt since the first few episodes of Xena (although for different reasons). Basically, the whole episode is the most irritating "pacifist to a fault" story elements from other similar characters all merged into one irritating abomination. The whole episode seems to be about making viewers hate Eli and Gabrielle, and it succeeded wonderfully in that regard. In the aftermath of the episode, Xena embraces the "way of the warrior", Gabrielle embraces the "way of the pretentious assh...I mean, the way of love " and I embrace the "way of the pissed off viewer".

Honestly, the end of season crucifixion they've been hinting at can't come soon enough. If nothing else, I need the catharsis of seeing the "way of love" turn out exactly as you'd expect. I really, really hope Gabrielle doesn't stay a pacifist for the rest of the series. I've liked Gabrielle for a long time, I hope she recovers from being a pretentious ass and becomes a likeable character again. This whole season has been really bad. There have been a few great episodes, but I can basically count them on one hand. Hopefully the rest of the episodes get better, and season 5 picks up. I can already say that Season 4 is the first bad season of Xena. Season 5 would have to work really hard to be worse than 4 has generally been so far.

 

[DWF]

I didn't mind Eli all that much, but Gabby's acceptance of India and the local religion is a different matter. It is hard to fight peace as idea and that's what Eli tried to do, it's a fall cry better than Xena fighting yet another local warlord.

 

[OmahaStar]

OVerall, this isn't as bad as The Bitter Suite ...

Out of curiosity, how would you know? You didn't actually watch that episode, as you'll recall ...

Well, I guess I mean its not as bad an idea as The Bitter Suite. Or maybe that, while its horrible, at least it wasn't done with costumes/sets stolen from a middle school play. It also didn't leave a huge storyline/set of events without resolution because the hack writers were to lazy to do anything except press the reset button on the problems that they had introduced to the show. But, since I actually do know the whole plot of the episode, if not specifics like the songs, I think I can definitely compare it to other episodes just based on its own content anyway.

It probably would have been more accurate to say that, while bad, Paradise Lost was at least self contained, and wasn't a specific middle finger to the viewers. The Bitter Suite is the worst episode of the show (regardless of whether I saw it or not) because of the effect it had on the storyline it was supposed to be the resolution of. So, it became the episode I compare all bad episodes to. Basically,

An episode that "resolves" a huge storyline with hack settings/costumes/writing and a gimmick to cover up the lazy reset button at the core of the episode < Evil Yoga Instructor

The evil Yoga Instructor was stupid, but compared to the stupidest/laziest/most insulting episode of xena, its not quite as bad.

You honestly do not have any idea what you're talking about in regards to that episode. You've already judged it with zero information. But then, you've also skipped some of the best episodes of the series, including everything about Lao Ma.

 

[kirk55555]

You honestly do not have any idea what you're talking about in regards to that episode. You've already judged it with zero information. But then, you've also skipped some of the best episodes of the series, including everything about Lao Ma.

They sing until Xena stops wanting to kill Gabrielle (which she should never have tried to do in the first place). There is no resolution in singing, at least the way they did it. Buffy managed to do an awesome musical episode that was important to the story, but they didn't dress up like idiots or film it on a horrible set that looks like 10 year olds built it. But, that was Joss Whedon. As much as I like a lot of Xena, Tapert/Raimi & friends are definitely no Whedon when it comes to making a TV show. It was a horrible decision, one that totally ruined the end of Maternal Instincts. They had a chance to recover from the horrible start of "The Rift", but they got lazy and used a bad gimmick to cover the reset button they were using for Xena/Gabrielle's relationship.

As for the Lao Ma c%^p, I don't get why anyone would care about me skipping that. Maybe because the mystical Asian mentor is such a unique idea, that it definitely deserved to be seen ? If I want that, I'll watch Karate Kid again. He may not technically be mystical, but Mr. Miyagi would definitely be more interesting. Plus, the story is much better than "Evil Woman gains super powers and a nickname that didn't need an explanation". Of the few episodes I've skipped, the Lao Ma stuff was the most pointless, and I have no thoughts that my choice to skip it was anything but a great, time saving decision.

 

[kirk55555]

Monster Child in the Promised Land (Hercules) - This was an ok episode. We see Echidna (the mother of all monsters)and her husband Typhon again. They've had another monster baby, but they want to raise this one right, so it doesn't turn evil. Hera, however, wants to use the baby for her own purposes, so she wants it kidnapped. But, a thief named Klepto, who heard of the baby when Hercules/Iaolus got the birth announcement, gets their first. He tricks the parents and steals the baby, hoping to use it to gain the favor of the warlord (who is coincidentally the same warlord Hera is using to steal the baby).

The thief has a change of heart, and eventually the warlord is defeated, the baby doesn't turn evil, and everything turns out ok. I liked seeing Echidna and Typhon again, and the baby was interesting. The thief was a bit to annoying for most of the episode though, and it was fairly predictable, which is why I think the episode was just ok.

 

[Forbin]

Echidna was a masterpiece of monster makeup on a terrible actress. She was painfully over the top with every line she uttered.

 

[kirk55555]

Echidna was a masterpiece of monster makeup on a terrible actress. She was painfully over the top with every line she uttered.

Honestly, I thought the performance fit the character perfectly. It was over the top, but I think it was supposed to be. The "mother of all monsters" isn't going to be a subdued or particularly subtle character when it comes to personality. The way she was acted wouldn't work with most characters, but I thought it fit Echidna perfectly.

 

[Kegg]

You honestly do not have any idea what you're talking about in regards to that episode. You've already judged it with zero information. But then, you've also skipped some of the best episodes of the series, including everything about Lao Ma.

Well he skipped a ton of the best episodes of Farscape before dropping it, solely based on plot descriptions. Just how he rolls I suppose.

 

[kirk55555]

The Green-Eyed Monster (Hercules) - Hercules runs into Aphrodite, who wants him to talk to Cupid. Cupid has fallen in love with a woman named Psyche, who Hercules knew when she was a kid. But, unknown to Cupid, Hera had placed a curse on him to turn him into a monster if he had unrequited love for a mortal (its a convuloted curse, but hera did it because Aphrodite had stolen one of her boyfriends, presumably a long time before Cupid was even born). Hercules tries to talk to him, but mostly gets ignored. Eventually, Hercules gets hit by one of cupid's arrows (because of accidental shenanigans from Salmoneus and Aphrodite), and falls in love with Psyche, which turns Cupid into the green-eyed monster.

Hercules fights off the love spell by remembering his wife, and fights monster cupid. It turns out all right, and Psyche gets together with Cupid. This was an enjoyable episode. Aphrodite and Salmoneus were entertaining as always, and Karl Urban is always good. The CG when Cupid became the monster was goofy, but to be expected.

 

[OmahaStar]

You honestly do not have any idea what you're talking about in regards to that episode. You've already judged it with zero information. But then, you've also skipped some of the best episodes of the series, including everything about Lao Ma.

Well he skipped a ton of the best episodes of Farscape before dropping it, solely based on plot descriptions. Just how he rolls I suppose.

Seriously? That's like reading TV Guide's description of Unification and skipping it because "I don't like flashbacks. I want to know what's happening now."

(As I recall, their description was "Picard and Mister Spock clash.")

I don't understand why anyone would watch something, continue to watch, enjoy it, but decide "eh, no, I don't want to see the very best of this." It makes no sense.

 

[kirk55555]

You honestly do not have any idea what you're talking about in regards to that episode. You've already judged it with zero information. But then, you've also skipped some of the best episodes of the series, including everything about Lao Ma.

Well he skipped a ton of the best episodes of Farscape before dropping it, solely based on plot descriptions. Just how he rolls I suppose.

Seriously? That's like reading TV Guide's description of Unification and skipping it because "I don't like flashbacks. I want to know what's happening now."

(As I recall, their description was "Picard and Mister Spock clash.")

I don't understand why anyone would watch something, continue to watch, enjoy it, but decide "eh, no, I don't want to see the very best of this." It makes no sense.

It depends on the show. I did end up dropping farscape altogether.

Spoiler: Farscape stuff, not really relevant to the Xena talk

I liked most of the main cast, but the show decided to give way too much screen time to the Jar Jar of the group, who ended up bringing down other cast members to her level. Then, they cloned the main character, probably because the writers had lobotomies sometime mid-season 2. Episodes of it got skipped because they were either Jar Jar (aka Chiana) episodes, or were based solely on clichés that were tired decades before Farscape got to them (like the romantic couple that’s broken up by a forced marriage, only for it to get reversed and not matter by the end of the story, wasting everyone’s time). By Season 2, the show was basically just going through every cliché in the book. There were some amazing episodes (The Way We Weren’t is one of my favorite episodes of a Sci Fi TV series ever) but the boring, poorly done clichés started to overwhelm the show. Someday I might go back and just watch the episodes heavily involving Aeryn, Pilot, and Rygel (the only characters that weren’t royally screwed over) but it was a different situation from Xena.

Xena as a show has a lot of great things, but it also has a lot of fluff. It likes to waste time by showing events that we already knew about. As far as I’m concerned, evil Xena is dead and gone, I will not spend one second seeing what she did before she met Hercules. It helps that all of her past episodes sound horrible. Mystical Asian mentors? I’d rather just watch Karate Kid again than watch Xena gain magic powers from a generic mystic. Julius Caesar? All he did was betray her, something she did constantly to people when she was evil. It was not a vendetta that needed more than a line of dialog. There was also The Bitter Suite, which ruined a whole arc of the show (well, ok, Hope ruined “The Rift”, but TBS ruined the resolution to the only good “Rift” focused episode) by literally singing away every problem brought up in the whole season so far. I don’t like skipping episodes, but I refuse to waste my time on things I know I’ll hate. There is absolutely no reason to ever show evil Xena, especially when all they’re doing is wasting time on events we already knew about. Nothing I have skipped is the “very best” of Xena.

The very best of Xena are episodes that have Xena, Gabrielle and friends traveling around having adventures and getting into trouble. Its fine to have serious stuff, but it needs to be in Xena’s present, and not cheap drama (like Xena and Gabrielle dying what feels like every other episode). Besides, I always end up watching the very worst of Xena anyway. I watched Sacrifice, I watched Paradise Found. I’ll be watching the rest of the sh&%$y “The Way” arc, even if I’m only doing it because I know I can laugh at Gabrielle getting what she deserves in the end for being such a pompous ass for the last third of the season. So, I take comfort in knowing that, no matter how bad it gets, I didn’t waste hours watching events I’m all ready familiar with, or a story that was just a lazy cop out from writers who couldn’t bother to resolve problems they set up. I know what I like and what I don’t. I hate Evil Xena, so I don’t watch episodes with flashbacks. I’m not watching the adventures of Xena: Evil Warlord. I enjoy Xena, Warrior Princess, and that doesn't include anything before her first Hercules appearance. I want the story to continue, not go backwards.

Why would I waste time watching stuff I know I don't like? I hated Xena in her first Hercules appearance, and I am definitely not watching anything with her set before that. Its that simple. I also reserve the right to automatically skip clip shows, and anything that looks/sounds horrible. But, besides Evil Xena stuff, its rare for me to skip stuff. But, I get as much enjoyment watching Xena my way as people who watch every single moment do. I haven’t skipped one thing I wanted to watch. Its fine if people like some of that stuff, but I don’t. There is more than enough good in Xena to make skipping a few episodes a non issue for me. It doesn't mean other people can't enjoy episodes I don't.

 

[kirk55555]

The Play's the Thing (Xena) - A boring "comedy" episode. Two con men get Gabrielle to make a play based on a scroll she wrote. She tries to make one to be as boring and pretentious as she is now, with predictable results. One of the only good things in this episode wass seeing Joxer again after what feels like an eternity. Another good thing was having a warlord talk about Gabrielle's play having no fun or excitement, the two exact things the show itself has been missing since The Key to the Kingdom seven episodes ago. Besides that, it sucked. The evil con men were annoying, and the story was mostly boring.

The Convert (Xena) - Gabrielle goes full pretentious a-hole in this episode, and that (combined with the reappearance of the extremely bad character Najara) makes this episode completely insufferable. Its mostly bad from beginning to end. The only interesting part was Joxer's first kill, which would have been a great subplot in an episode that wasn't atrocious. As it is, it was completely wasted on this episode. At this point, I really can't wait to get through this season. I don't think I'll be seeing another episode until Gabrille leaves the "way of the pretentious a-hole" behind, and Ive read that she goes back to fighting in Season 5.

 

[kirk55555]

Takes One to Know One (Xena) - This was an ok episode, which for Season 4 is a big compliment. It has some problems, but its a fairly entertaining murder mystery. Discord was really annoying, but besides that it was entertaining. Its the last appearance of Autolycus on Xena, which sucks. Its a good thing I have so much of Hercules left, so I'll still be seeing ore of Autolycus. The solution to the mystery was goofy, and I kind of guessed it, but it wasn't bad. Overall, this was a decent episode, something which has been rare this season.

 

[kirk55555]

Endgame (Xena) -This wasn't bad, but it wasn't very good. We see the Amazon's again, and Epiphany dies (I wonder what will happen to her son, who she gave birth to in a Hercules episode but Xena never mentioned). Gabrielle becomes queen, and has to find a way (along with Xena, obviously) to stop the Roman's from killing the Amazon's, and rescuing some captured Amazon's. They manage to do it, of course, and Xena kills Pompey along the way. They pick up an annoying Amazon flunky named Amarice to travel with them at the end of the episode.

The Ides of March (Xena) - This wasn't very good. We see Eli again, and he's annoying as ever. We get the end of Caesar, and that was actually done very well. We see Gabrielle leave the "way of the pretentious a-hole" and actually do something for the first time in ages, protecting an injured Xena. We then see Gabrielle and xena get crucified, which at this point is more cathartic than emotional after how bad this season (and specifically almost everything since Paradise Found) has been. They'll be back next season, and I hope its better than this one has been.

Deja Vu All Over Again (Xena) - Its a clip show, so skipped.

So, overall, season 4 has been generally horrible. It had two good episodes (In Sickness and in Hell, Key to the Kingdom), a few watchable episodes and more bad episodes than any single season of a good show I've seen with the exception of TNG Season 1. The worst episode is probably a tie between Paradise Found and The Way, although basically every episode from Paradise Found until Endgame is generally horrible (the exception being Takes One to Know One, which was ok). Thw Way of Love story arc was infuriating, and if I didn't know better I'd think it was an intentional attempt to make the audience hate Gabrielle as much as possible.

I'd say Season 5 couldn't be worse, but it definitely will be once it skips 25 years and kills off Joxer for basically no reason (then has his killer immediately forgiven, proving that none of the characters in the show actually gave a s%^t about him). Honestly I might just stop at the time skip. Hopefully until then Season 5 redeems the show after a horrible 4th season.

 

[Timewalker]

Please don't stop now. There's a pretty good Ares episode coming...

 

[JRS]

I hate Evil Xena, so I don’t watch episodes with flashbacks. I’m not watching the adventures of Xena: Evil Warlord. I enjoy Xena, Warrior Princess, and that doesn't include anything before her first Hercules appearance. I want the story to continue, not go backwards.

But that past stuff is pretty important to the series as a whole
Its almost like an secondary plot running trough the entire series, much like the mythology arch of The X-Files. Those episodes give the viewer also reason of why she is the woman she is "today" and why her past haunts her so much.
Those episodes were some of best of Xena, IMHO and added much needed darkness and drama for the show. I like this stuff better than some of the comedy episodes we saw.
I agree with others, that you have sadly skipped some good episodes.

The Lao Ma stuff you think was "generic" had also lot to do with the relationship between Gabrielle and Xena.
And considering the series borrowed some from Chinese Wuxia/Kung Fu genre( especially to the fight scenes and not to mention the pressure points stuff) its not surprise they visited Asia few times during some of the episodes.

I find it odd that you want Xena to be just good, that would make the character very one dimensional and boring to watch. Its much more cool to watch her as sum of her parts and so forth.
I agree that the series can be sometimes uneven though but its still a very good show and fun journey to take.

 

[kirk55555]

Please don't stop now. There's a pretty good Ares episode coming...

Well, I'd only be stopping at episode 19 of Season 5, that leaves 18 episodes. If Ares has a good episode in those ones, I'll see it. If you're talking about Ares giving up his godhood to heal/save Xena, I'm aware of it. With the Twilight of the Gods arc I've already completely spoiled myself, because once I knew a little about it it was so atrocious I had to read about the rest of it. I'm not going to watch the show kill off every interesting character, and I sure as hell don't want to watch Xena without the possibility of seeing Joxer. So, I'd say Season 5, episode 18 is going to be the last episode of Xena for me. Not idiotic time skip, no murder of a bunch of dieties, etc.

I'll probably be watching more Hercules for awhile, so I don't get to the end of Xena too soon. Plus, Hercules at its worst never gets as bad as Xena at its worst, so after Xena Season 4 some Hercules will be a good change of pace.

I hate Evil Xena, so I don’t watch episodes with flashbacks. I’m not watching the adventures of Xena: Evil Warlord. I enjoy Xena, Warrior Princess, and that doesn't include anything before her first Hercules appearance. I want the story to continue, not go backwards.

I find it odd that you want Xena to be just good, that would make the character very one dimensional and boring to watch. Its much more cool to watch her as sum of her parts and so forth.
I agree that the series can be sometimes uneven though but its still a very good show and fun journey to take.

I don't need or want her to be squeaky clean good. Even in Xena's present she has a dark streak which she has to fight sometimes, which makes sense. I just HATE her when she was evil. She was not a well written character, and I don't want to watch a show with Xena as a villain. Everything important in the past episodes was already explained in the present as exposition anyway, which is how it should work.

The past episodes are just a waste of time. I don't like evil Xena. I don't need to see her being evil, I know that it happened. I also don't need to see her meeting Caesar or learning magic powers from "generic asian mentor #4567864". I happily skipped those flashback episodes, and I don't regret it at all.