Hercules/Xena (Spoilers)
- Thread starter kirk55555
- Start date
Well, unless Hercules or Iolaus start following the Way of Love, or Hercules gives birth to a demonic kid, there is no way Hercules can ever be as bad as Xena's worst episodes. The great Xena episodes are amazing, but the bad episodes are some of the worst TV I've ever seen. Hercules has tended so far to not go to either extreme too often, and its definitely never had as bad an episode as the worst of Xena so far.
As I've asked (and been ignored) before, "How would you know?" Since you refuse to see them, you have no frame of reference to say that. It's like Harlan Ellison says, "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion." Until you actually see the episodes in full, frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.
I have to agree. It's like my issues with the nuDune novels. I have an informed opinion that they're crap because I've read them, and can articulate why I think they're bad books. There are other people who just go around saying "they're bad" but haven't read them; they're just parroting other peoples' opinions.
Kirk55555, obviously you do have a right to your opinions about Xena, but you're dismissing some of the best material, just based on a few lines in an episode summary. Very often those summaries are so superficial that they miss whole plots or subplots that are the real meat of the story.
The Asian story arc is an important part of what made Xena the person she became. It's also beautifully written and acted, and it's really unfair to dismiss it as you have.
She wasn't well written as evil in her Hercules appearances. As for other stuff, I don't need to see the episodes to say I hate evil Xena. I hated her Hercules appearances, and I hated it the few times Xena reverted to her in the series (like when she basically went full evil Xena defending a fort, or when she tried to murder Gabrielle). I don't need to see anything else to say I hate the character of evil Xena. I never said I hated the episodes Destiny, The Debt etc. I said I hate evil Xena, and because of that I won't watch her episodes. I also said that everything I need to know about her past is explained in exposition, which is true. Almost every flashback episode flashes to events that were previously described in exposition first, and anything else I learned later while watching later episodes.
I've explained how I know several times. I've given legitimate reasons. I don't need to eat dog poop to know I won't like the taste. I know that I hate evil Xena, and I know that I don't want to see flashbacks to events that I already know about, and sound boring/stupid regardless. You don't need to see an episode if you already hate the premise. I don't want to watch them, I will never watch them, and I have my own reasons for not watching them, which I've explained in length several times. Its fine if you don't agree, but my position will never change when it comes to the Xena flashback episodes.
Its all opinion. Evil Xena was an important part of Xena's back story, but I don't need to see it. Just like I don't need to see the same "mystical mentor" story that's been done for decades. We didn't need to see any of the China (I'm not calling it Chin) stuff. Just like we don't need to see episodes about Iolaus learning his "old hunter's tricks", or an episode that shows Hercules mother "making" Hercules with Zeus, or some episode about the secret origin or Argo. We know those things happened. But, at least those events involved interesting characters I don't hate. Evil Xena flashbacks are just as pointless, but with the added "bonus" of a character I hate taking center stage.
I'm not dismissing the episodes based on summary alone. I'm dismissing them because I hate evil Xena, the fact that some of the episodes involve horrible cliches or stupidity is just a bonus reason to skip them.
This is how I felt about the nuTrek movies, and was told that I needed to watch more than a trailer and read a couple of articles before deciding I didn't like it. So I watched them, and while I still hate them, at least I have a better list of reasons why.
Nobody is saying you have to like Evil Xena. She wasn't a nice person when she was evil. It's the journey she took from her evil self to her flawed-but-good self that's interesting. I'm not even saying you have to like the episode "Bitter Suite" - I don't like it myself, and once sat through a 2-hour long-distance phone conversation in which the other person carried on about what a wonderful episode it was. Good thing it was one of my best friends, since I was paying for the phone call.
As far as I'm concerned, that journey isn't interesting or important. The journey I care about only starts once she's turned to the good side and starts trying to redeem her actions. I don't really care why she turned evil, or specifics of what she did while evil. It can be important to the present, but I don't care to see it as it happens, just how it effects her once she's good. Her past should effect her present, but as far as I'm concerned everything before her first appearance in Hercules has been adequately explained through dialog, and without me having to suffer through watching evil Xena. I don't like the character, why would I waste hours watching her on TV, even if I didn't think the flashbacks themselves were pointless?
Epiphany's child was a centaur, yes? That must have been a painful birth!
The Ides of March made me think Karl Urban was a terrible actor. I've seen him do good and bad since, but I think he was just terrible in that episode. He seemed to be having an really hard time pronouncing the word "important" in an American accent.
The Ides of March made me think Karl Urban was a terrible actor. I've seen him do good and bad since, but I think he was just terrible in that episode. He seemed to be having an really hard time pronouncing the word "important" in an American accent.
Prince Hercules (Hercules) - This was pretty boring. Hercules loses his memoy (thanks to Hera's scheming) and an evil queen tries to take advantage and get him to be her general. The only memorable thing about this episode was that Iolaus spent part of it purple, after falling in a vat of grapes being used to make wine. Besides that, this was very forgettable.
A Star to Guide Them (Hercules) – Iolaus (along with two others) get a dream that starts leading them somewhere. Hercules follows to help, and along the way has to save a bunch of children from being killed by an evil king/queen who fear a prophecy about a child born around this time. Hercules helps save the day, and Iolaus and the other two who had the vision get to where they need to go, a stable (actually, manger would obviously be more appropriate) under a shining star. The implication being that a certain son of God is being born, which just makes me sigh and roll my eyes at this point (I’d really like less Christianity in my ancient greek mythology, and this is coming from someone who isn’t an atheist). Overall this was ok, but it could have been better.
A Star to Guide Them (Hercules) – Iolaus (along with two others) get a dream that starts leading them somewhere. Hercules follows to help, and along the way has to save a bunch of children from being killed by an evil king/queen who fear a prophecy about a child born around this time. Hercules helps save the day, and Iolaus and the other two who had the vision get to where they need to go, a stable (actually, manger would obviously be more appropriate) under a shining star. The implication being that a certain son of God is being born, which just makes me sigh and roll my eyes at this point (I’d really like less Christianity in my ancient greek mythology, and this is coming from someone who isn’t an atheist). Overall this was ok, but it could have been better.
I got bored yesterday when the internet was down all day, and I didn't want to start on Season 5 of Xena yet, so I decided to just say screw it and revisit a few skipped episodes. Mostly to confirm my already held opinions, but I still did it.
So, some actual discussion on previously skipped Xena episodes:
Destiny (Xena) - This was ok, but not great. Honestly, it felt like not enough happened. Which is weird, because a lot did, but it still kind of felt like the material was stretched to fit 45 minutes. There felt like a bit too much time was wasted doing nothing in particular. This wasn't a bad episode by any means, though. Xena wasn't as annoying as I thought (although she was pretty naive for a pirate), and the cricifiction felt brutal, unlike The Ides of March where I was too annoyed at Gabrielle to really care about them getting crucified at that point. Now, that said, I learned absolutely nothing I didn't already know from reading the summary awhile ago and seeing later episodes. But, I don't regret seeing it, it was flawed but generally ok.
The Debt (Xena) - This two parter was more mixed than Destiny. Part 1 was pretty decent, part 2 was a bit disjointed at times and annoying. Lao Ma was actually more of a cliched "mystical mentor" than I expected, and had even less personality than I would have guessed. It was funny to see her use her jedi/airbending powers, which were very over the top. Borias was kind of interesting, although he wasn't really any different from any other warlord we see, he's just a bit more practical than many of them. Evil Xena was a bit more entertaining in this two parter. She still did stupid things, but it wasn't annoying to me. Seeing her training, while not bad or anything, did feel pointless. Honestly, it was so bland and cliche I could have gone forever without seeing any of the Lao Ma/Xena scenes. They weren't bad, but they weren't particularly well done or interesting.
The present day stuff in this story was pretty annoying. Gabrielle was acting like an idiot (although a less annoying idiot than Season 4 Gabrielle), and Xena might not have had so much trouble if she'd either lied to Gabrielle or managed to tell her the whole story in the first place. Overall, this two parter was just ok. It was held back by Lao Ma being fairly cliche and boring, and with the present day stuff being annoying. Also, like Destiny, I didn't learn anything I didn't already know. I don't regret watching it, but I wasn't missing anything information wise when I skipped it.
One thing I did notice, going back to season 2 and 3 of Xena, is that the show really did lose something in Season 4. I also re watched A Solstice Carol and A Day in the Life over the last few days, and they felt like Xena episodes in a way 90% of season 4 didn't, same with Destiny and The Debt.
It's hard to put my finger on it, but I think its that its not bogged down with pointless BS. The first three seasons had no pretentious philosophy (Lao Ma isn't remotely as annoying as Eli and Gabrielle in season 4, just blander), and there was a sense of adventure even when pretty dark things were happening. It wasn't afraid to be fun when it wanted to, or be dark but entertaining. Season 4 was more about getting character conflict as the main priority, over things like entertainment or just having a good episode.
That problem started in season 3, but S3 still managed to have a bunch of good episodes. Season 4 just seemed to forget what made Xena a great show (with the exception of the two good S4 episodes, In Sickness and In Hell and Key to the Kingdom). I hope we see more of Seasons 1-3 style episodes in Season 5.
As for what's next before I get to season 5, I plan to watch Adventures in the Sin Trade and Past Imperfect just to complete watching the skipped Evil Xena episodes (actually, I get the feeling I may be forgetting one, but if so its not important enough to remember anyway). The Bitter Suite will not be watched, because that wasn't skipped because of Evil Xena. It was skipped for being a BS, cop out, reset button gimmick episode, and because it looked like it was made by sneaking onto a middle school play set and stealing their stuff (along with a 12 year old to write the episode itself
).
So, some actual discussion on previously skipped Xena episodes:
Destiny (Xena) - This was ok, but not great. Honestly, it felt like not enough happened. Which is weird, because a lot did, but it still kind of felt like the material was stretched to fit 45 minutes. There felt like a bit too much time was wasted doing nothing in particular. This wasn't a bad episode by any means, though. Xena wasn't as annoying as I thought (although she was pretty naive for a pirate), and the cricifiction felt brutal, unlike The Ides of March where I was too annoyed at Gabrielle to really care about them getting crucified at that point. Now, that said, I learned absolutely nothing I didn't already know from reading the summary awhile ago and seeing later episodes. But, I don't regret seeing it, it was flawed but generally ok.
The Debt (Xena) - This two parter was more mixed than Destiny. Part 1 was pretty decent, part 2 was a bit disjointed at times and annoying. Lao Ma was actually more of a cliched "mystical mentor" than I expected, and had even less personality than I would have guessed. It was funny to see her use her jedi/airbending powers, which were very over the top. Borias was kind of interesting, although he wasn't really any different from any other warlord we see, he's just a bit more practical than many of them. Evil Xena was a bit more entertaining in this two parter. She still did stupid things, but it wasn't annoying to me. Seeing her training, while not bad or anything, did feel pointless. Honestly, it was so bland and cliche I could have gone forever without seeing any of the Lao Ma/Xena scenes. They weren't bad, but they weren't particularly well done or interesting.
The present day stuff in this story was pretty annoying. Gabrielle was acting like an idiot (although a less annoying idiot than Season 4 Gabrielle), and Xena might not have had so much trouble if she'd either lied to Gabrielle or managed to tell her the whole story in the first place. Overall, this two parter was just ok. It was held back by Lao Ma being fairly cliche and boring, and with the present day stuff being annoying. Also, like Destiny, I didn't learn anything I didn't already know. I don't regret watching it, but I wasn't missing anything information wise when I skipped it.
One thing I did notice, going back to season 2 and 3 of Xena, is that the show really did lose something in Season 4. I also re watched A Solstice Carol and A Day in the Life over the last few days, and they felt like Xena episodes in a way 90% of season 4 didn't, same with Destiny and The Debt.
It's hard to put my finger on it, but I think its that its not bogged down with pointless BS. The first three seasons had no pretentious philosophy (Lao Ma isn't remotely as annoying as Eli and Gabrielle in season 4, just blander), and there was a sense of adventure even when pretty dark things were happening. It wasn't afraid to be fun when it wanted to, or be dark but entertaining. Season 4 was more about getting character conflict as the main priority, over things like entertainment or just having a good episode.
That problem started in season 3, but S3 still managed to have a bunch of good episodes. Season 4 just seemed to forget what made Xena a great show (with the exception of the two good S4 episodes, In Sickness and In Hell and Key to the Kingdom). I hope we see more of Seasons 1-3 style episodes in Season 5.
As for what's next before I get to season 5, I plan to watch Adventures in the Sin Trade and Past Imperfect just to complete watching the skipped Evil Xena episodes (actually, I get the feeling I may be forgetting one, but if so its not important enough to remember anyway). The Bitter Suite will not be watched, because that wasn't skipped because of Evil Xena. It was skipped for being a BS, cop out, reset button gimmick episode, and because it looked like it was made by sneaking onto a middle school play set and stealing their stuff (along with a 12 year old to write the episode itself
).
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Good for you! See, nobody ever said you had to like the skipped episodes, but now you have more concrete reasons for your opinions about them.
There's a moment in The Debt - Xena's in the waterlogged dungeon, and Gabrielle has come to see her to apologize. Xena won't even acknowledge her for a while. Then Xena asks Gabby to scratch her nose for her. Gabby gives a wonderful little gasp/giggle of relief. I just think that is one tiny, perfect, honest moment of acting by Rene.
Something I loved about the show - it gave the cast opportunities for every kind of acting, from over-the-top dire melodrama, over-the-top comedy, down to honest little character moments like that.
Something I loved about the show - it gave the cast opportunities for every kind of acting, from over-the-top dire melodrama, over-the-top comedy, down to honest little character moments like that.
Adventures in the Sin Trade (Xena) - This was just atrocious. The no flashback stuff was horrible, and easily the worst Amazon story I've seen on Xena so far (and that's saying something). The flashbacks were better, but there wasn't enough of them. Alti was a horrible character. I completely forgot she was in Between the Lines for most of the story, but since that episode is in the horrible India arc, I'm not surprised I've suppressed the memory enough to forget I'd seen Alti before. I hated just about every second of the non flashback stuff, and the flashbacks themselves were only ok (although Alti's curse on Solan, if it actually came true, kind of screws that storyline up if it all happened because of her and not just the situation). Overall, I definitely regret watching this one. I hope Past Imperfect will be better, but this is Season 4 Xena, so its doubtful.
Past Imperfect (Xena) - This was a nice surprise. It wasn't great, but it was a decent episode with good (although not really needed) flashbacks. Someone tries to take out a city using Xena's old tactics, which makes Xena relive the events of her fight against Corinth, when Solan was born and Borias died. The present day stuff was predictable, but not bad. The flashbacks were interesting, but mostly went over stuff they'd already told us a few seasons ago. Overall, this was a decent episode in a bad season.
Deja Vu All Over Again (Xena) - I decided to watch the season 4 ending clipshow, and it was decent (the actual story parts, the clips were just clips). A woman (played by Lucy Lawless) thinks she's the incarnation of Xena. It turns out she's actually Joxer, her boyfriend Harry (Ted Raimi) is Xena and the past life specialist she went to (played by Renee O'Connor) was Gabrielle. This had some entertaining and funny moments, and was worth watching. Its also Robert Trebor's last appearence in the franchise, and he is pretty entertaining as Ares in disguise. We also see Ares in normal form, for the first time in season 4. Its really weird that he only shows up once this season, but it seems like he showed up a bunch in the Hercules season that was happening at the same time (Season 5) which I guess explains his absence. Overall this was ok, it had some nice moments and for a clip show had a good wraparound story.
I almost needed a scorecard to keep up with that episode! 
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