Star Trek: Axanar

[doubleohfive]

To clarify (since it was my review from two weeks ago that set off this latest resurgence of discussion), I did not review the entire film based on the "Prelude to Axanar" teaser. I reviewed the teaser itself, and my review, admittedly also took in to account all the heaping helpings of praise that it has garnered over the past four months since its release and in doing so I tried to take a step back -- from the be limelight of glory the teaser has awarded itself and from my own personal dealings with Alec Peters and his supporters to fairly, accurately and as to consider from a closely critically constructive view what the film is.

I will not apologize for not adopting some untarnished idealistic opinion of the film simply because there's a ton of people who did love it or because Alec sends a gang of bullies to rush over here to try to drown out my one singlular perspective on the teaser.

But you are right -- it's foolish to judge the finished film solely on the teaser, which is why I took great pains to only comment on the content of the teaser in my review and nothing else.

That's fine and all, but didn't you criticize the trailer for not showing you how the story would end?

No, I most certainly did not. I did however point out that it was rather foolish (in my estimation) to include so many of the big name characters in the prelude, set after the events of the film because it robbed any sense of urgency that these characters would be in any kind of danger in the final film. As it is, we know all of them will survive. In a film about war, what's really the point then? Your mileage may vary of course, but that particular story choice rang incredibly hollow for me.

I don't remember the exact wording, and I can't be bothered to look it up, but it seemed to me that you had passed judgment on the story before "reading" the ending. That was my takeaway, and if I'm mistaken you have my apology.

Nope. As I said, it had everything to do with the expectation the teaser set up for the feature film. Unless Axanar is brimming over with other characters whose journeys we will be following and caring about in the full film that just weren't included here, it's hard to really know what to expect since none of these characters are going be placed in any real danger or peril. What's at stake that I should care about as a viewer?

Granted, I am keeping an open mind and of course am looking forward to the finished film, but at the moment all I have to go on is Prelude to Axanar, and as we've seen, Sonya, Ramirez, Kharn, Soval, Travis and Garth all survive the events of the film to tell about it years later on the Starfleet History Channel.

Regardless, it was not necessarily your review I was referring to in my previous post.

Fair enough.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

we've seen, Sonya, Ramirez, Kharn, Soval, Travis and Garth all survive the events of the film to tell about it years later on the Starfleet History Channel.

Well we know Garth was going to make it before it even started so that isn't a surprise.

Soval is a diplomat who outside of negotiations probably didn't have squat to do with the war is again no big surprise.

With Ramirez, unless the Klingons sake Earth he's safe as he is the head of Starfleet so not likely to be on the battlefield.

Really its the same deal as Ramirez with Kharn, seeing as he is the one running the Klingon war efforts which would require him being in a command facility away from the front to coordinate battles across multiple start systems so little risk there.

So really only two characters would have had their fates in question.

 

[doubleohfive]

Regardless, the point remains. There are no stakes if none of the characters face any legit peril in the course of their adventure. What's the point? It's just characters moving from point A to point B.

Admittedly, this is a simplistic perspective to look at all this from, but from a storytelling point of view, and taking into account that we've not seen the finished film, "Prelude" robs the full film of that question and part of me feels that's a real letdown. Your mileage may vary of course, but that's how I see it.

 

[GSchnitzer]

Regardless, the point remains. There are no stakes if none of the characters face any legit peril in the course of their adventure. What's the point? It's just characters moving from point A to point B.

Admittedly, this is a simplistic perspective to look at all this from, but from a storytelling point of view, and taking into account that we've not seen the finished film, "Prelude" robs the full film of that question and part of me feels that's a real letdown. Your mileage may vary of course, but that's how I see it.

My mileage does vary a bit. I remember when Lincoln came out. My thinking was "Well, we know the outcome here and we have for 150 years now. The stakes are kind of low and there is little opportunity for suspense. This can't help but be a lousy movie." I was delightfully surprised: you actually can do a compelling drama when the outcome is known. You'd think that I'd have learned that simple filmmaking lesson back when I saw Apollo 13, but I guess not.

 

[doubleohfive]

And that's an excellent point. Where history already gave us the outcome of Lincoln's life, there were clearly other, excellent stories to tell involving him, or with Apollo 13. But those are known events and people from history. This is a film about a set of fictional characters. I'd say there is a little wiggle room here that qualifies it a little bit differently. For a fictional narrative about fictional characters, my gut reaction was exactly as described regarding Axanar.

I don't discount that the full film won't be superb. I have every expectation that it WILL be as amazing and as wonderful as everyone seems to think it will be. I'm just not altogether as impressed based solely on the teaser.

 

[SPCTRE]

And that's an excellent point. Where history already gave us the outcome of Lincoln's life, there were clearly other, excellent stories to tell involving him, or with Apollo 13. But those are known events and people from history. This is a film about a set of fictional characters. I'd say there is a little wiggle room here that qualifies it a little bit differently. For a fictional narrative about fictional characters, my gut reaction was exactly as described regarding Axanar.

This is a stretch, but did you maybe play Halo: Reach? Perfect example of a fictional story that made for some pretty good dramatic storytelling even though the outcome was known from the beginning.

 

[northstar]

Showing all these actors in the Prelude was probably less a decision about the story then to show who is involved and garner interest for the project - which they did. That they must have survived the battle wasn´t likely much thought about. As somebody already pointed out, all except Travis, Sonya and maybe Kharn are not likely to be in any battle situation at all.

On the other hand - who knows how big their role in the actual movie will be? Especially Sonya and Travis may have only a few minutes of screentime - and we will have plenty of other characters that we will follow through the story and can worry about them. I would imagine we will see more of the crew of the Ares - and aside of Garth we have seen none of them in Prelude.

So, I don´t worry too much about that aspect.

 

[Duane]

005 wrote: "Unless Axanar is brimming over with other characters whose journeys we will be following and caring about in the full film that just weren't included here, it's hard to really know what to expect since none of these characters are going be placed in any real danger or peril. What's at stake that I should care about as a viewer?"

Haven't we already been told that most of the more famous actors we see in "Prelude" have rather small roles in the actual film? I'm sure I read that somewhere. Also, the last time I saw a list of characters there were tons of roles not yet cast. Most of the crew of the Axanar, for example.

 

[doubleohfive]

005 wrote: "Unless Axanar is brimming over with other characters whose journeys we will be following and caring about in the full film that just weren't included here, it's hard to really know what to expect since none of these characters are going be placed in any real danger or peril. What's at stake that I should care about as a viewer?"

Haven't we already been told that most of the more famous actors we see in "Prelude" have rather small roles in the actual film? I'm sure I read that somewhere. Also, the last time I saw a list of characters there were tons of roles not yet cast. Most of the crew of the Axanar, for example.

I wouldn't know. I've not been following the extraneous information about the films all that closely and as stated above, I tried to contain my comments about "Prelude to Axanar" to what was presented in the teaser alone.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

One exceptional show that did a good job of providing interesting drama, despite giving away the ultimate outcome up front, was Columbo.

Under its "reverse whodunit" format, Columbo generally began with showing us, right off the bat, who did it and how. This eliminates outright one pitfall of the regular whodunit: that in order for suspense to be maintained, often what we know must be manipulated unfairly by the narrator.

There was never any question that Columbo would figure out what we already knew and catch the killer. Much of the drama came from finding out what mistakes the killer made that would lead to their capture, a process that was enhanced by our foreknowledge of how the crime had been done. And in contrast the facts of the crime itself, character motive was often not revealed up front. There was also the interplay between detective and killer as Columbo dogged the murderer, and much of the entertainment was derived simply from watching Peter Falk. Sometimes drama in the show came by introducing variations into its own formula.

In the hands of talented artists, fundamental rules in drama can be broken, to great effect, even rules that exist for good reason not to spill the beans. But the onus is on the rule-breakers to realize what they've done and to bring enough to the table in compensation. Columbo did all that.

 

[doubleohfive]

Oh I agree. I suppose the question of the hour then really is then "Can Axanar do all that?"

We'll have to wait and see to find out!

 

[Barbreader]

As to why George and Walter appeared in Phase II: were they paid?

I have no doubt they were paid -- SAG/AFTRA union law would require that they'd have to be, wouldn't they?

...which sort of puts a pin prick in Barb's little balloon/point, but she's also not wrong that the stunt casting does deliver more viewers.

1) When a major Trek figure like George Takai takes an interest in a fan film, new or old, dozens, if not hundreds of people who have not seen many (or any) fan films will watch that one and declare that it is the 'greatest one of all time.' I find it curious that the hard heads who post here regularly take these comments seriously enough that they feel the need to address why they disagree with them. Half of these people have seen a few films with friends filming themselves clowning around in Trek uniforms, and that's all they are comparing it to.

2) When 'event' fan films happen, some people who have never heard of or watched a fan film watch the event film and become open to watching other Star Trek Fan films. Fan Trek is not a zero sum game. Rather, one great fan film raises audience interest for other fan films. Newbies for one film or film series are potential newbies for all. Rather that being annoyed by those proclaiming Film XYZ 'the Greatest Fan Film of All Time" consider asking them why they think it's better than... e.g., TTI, WEAT, Lolani. Consider using the comment as an opening to lead them to try more.

Although I did include WEaT in my list of three films to suggest to folks who are annoyingly calling a film you think unworthy, "the greatest fan film of all time,", the subject of this thread is Axanar. In my first bullet point, I was referring to the tweet or tweets (I don't recall if there was just one or more than one) that George Takai put out during the second Kickstarter for Axanar that almost doubled the response in just a few days. I was NOT referring to WEaT or any other 'Event' fan film. That's why it's a separate point.

Now, Maurice, are you suggesting George was paid for that tweet, or are you, as it appears, changing the subject to WEaT? This thread is an Axanar thread, and, as doubleohfive has stated, this was set off by his annoyance that people (some of whom I have engaged by PM on Facebook, and those admitted to having seen few fan films) said Prelude to Axanar was the 'greatest fan film of all time.' I won't discuss his other comments on this, because I was not addressing those. But George Takai apparently watched Prelude to Axanar and recommended the fundraiser. I suspect many of those over-the-top comments were fans of his, not fans of fan films.

And yes, I got some folks to watch those three films since they got so excited about Prelude to Axanar. But, I'm a viewer, not a filmmaker.

 

[Harvey]

Now, Maurice, are you suggesting George was paid for that tweet, or are you, as it appears, changing the subject to WEaT?

I think your initial post just wasn't clear, sorry.

And it is spelled Takei.

 

[doubleohfive]

Indeed. I was not aware Takei released a tweet in support of Axanar before you clarified it here just now, Barb.

 

[Barbreader]

Now, Maurice, are you suggesting George was paid for that tweet, or are you, as it appears, changing the subject to WEaT?

I think your initial post just wasn't clear, sorry.

And it is spelled Takei.

Appearing in a film is a LOT more than taking an interest in a film. And this is discussing Axanar. I think I was perfectly clear.

Sorry about the spelling.

 

[doubleohfive]

Barb, you were the one who brought up Takei's involvement in these proceedings in a roundabout and unclear manner. It's been clarified now, but try to understand -- before you cleared the matter up, it was perfectly understandable that we might assume your reference to Takei was specifically about "World Enough And Time."

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

It's five actors and a dude in front of a green screen.

For what it is, it's fine. Yes, the actors outshine the non-actor. Wouldn't expect it otherwise.

The story is almost a stereotypical 'Mary Sue' wherein the established characters fawn over the 'guest star' and TELL (not show) us how's she (or in this case, he) is the greatest thing in the galaxy since sliced bread. The way it's done, I doubt that anyone could ever live up to the image that the actors have created of Garth of Izar.

The visual effects are outstanding, of course, but fail to interest me in the story. (To me, Star Trek isn't about war -- it's about preventing it.) It's just cool ships, and pew-pew, and new ships.

That being said, it appealed to enough fans to get $650,000 in funding.

Now we're in wait-and-see mode, wondering what will become of it. I look forward to seeing the results, and I hope they're worth it. I admit to being a tad skeptical, but I'm a realist.

 

[Barbreader]

Barb, you were the one who brought up Takei's involvement in these proceedings in a roundabout and unclear manner. It's been clarified now, but try to understand -- before you cleared the matter up, it was perfectly understandable that we might assume your reference to Takei was specifically about "World Enough And Time."

Without Maurice heading us off in that direction, I sincerely doubt you would have mistaken my comment to mean that. WEaT has nothing to do with this thread. I am trying to NOT bring up past feuds here.

The overall point is that this is NOT a zero sum game. Work by one fan filmmaker that attracts audience attention results in a bigger audience for all.

And again, yes, I spelled Takei wrong. Which should underline that I was not thinking deeply about his landmark appearances in Star Trek fan films. Before anyone claims to be confused, I was not in any post above, referring to Takei's appearance in "Yorktown, A Time to Heal." Wouldn't want anyone to be confused about THAT.

Given that Orci posts regularly at Trekmovie.com (I tried to invite him over here, but my post did not appear... not that I'm surprised) and calls himself a 'fan,' I guess even Pro Trek movies are now high budget fan films... (that was supposed to be a joke).

 

[doubleohfive]

Barb, you were the one who brought up Takei's involvement in these proceedings in a roundabout and unclear manner. It's been clarified now, but try to understand -- before you cleared the matter up, it was perfectly understandable that we might assume your reference to Takei was specifically about "World Enough And Time."

Without Maurice heading us off in that direction, I sincerely doubt you would have mistaken my comment to mean that. WEaT has nothing to do with this thread. I am trying to NOT bring up past feuds here.

Who said anything about past feuds?

1) You mentioned Takei in reference to Axanar.

2) Maurice, and later I, assumed you were referring to Takei's well known and well-regarded turn in "World Enough and Time" and asked a queston based on that assumption.

3) You later clarified that no, you were referring to Takei's lesser known turn tweeting in support of Axanar's Kickstarter.

4) Harvey, and later I, acknowledged that your first mention of Takei in this thread was unclear/confusing but that your point is now understood after further clarification.

I'm not seeing how any of this is difficult to understand, or why you feel the need to defend anything. It was a simple misunderstanding now straightened out.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Barb, you were the one who brought up Takei's involvement in these proceedings in a roundabout and unclear manner. It's been clarified now, but try to understand -- before you cleared the matter up, it was perfectly understandable that we might assume your reference to Takei was specifically about "World Enough And Time."

Without Maurice heading us off in that direction, I sincerely doubt you would have mistaken my comment to mean that. WEaT has nothing to do with this thread. I am trying to NOT bring up past feuds here.

The overall point is that this is NOT a zero sum game. Work by one fan filmmaker that attracts audience attention results in a bigger audience for all.

And again, yes, I spelled Takei wrong. Which should underline that I was not thinking deeply about his landmark appearances in Star Trek fan films. Before anyone claims to be confused, I was not in any post above, referring to Takei's appearance in "Yorktown, A Time to Heal." Wouldn't want anyone to be confused about THAT.

Given that Orci posts regularly at Trekmovie.com (I tried to invite him over here, but my post did not appear... not that I'm surprised) and calls himself a 'fan,' I guess even Pro Trek movies are now high budget fan films... (that was supposed to be a joke).

I'm glad this has been cleared up, because it was really confusing. Barbreader, in the same post you mentioned WEaT and Phase II both by name, you discussed Phase II in detail, and in the context of George Takei you mentioned fan films, new or old, but you didn't mention Axanar by name at all, so add me to the list of people who thought you must have been talking about George Takei's involvement in WEaT.

The idea that it was Maurice who led us down an off-topic road is a non-starter.

A few responses more generally. I'm not going to quote exactly which comment or line I am responding to, but if you read this whole thread, I don't think my comments will seem to come out of thin air.

1) When a major Trek figure like George Takai takes an interest in a fan film, new or old, dozens, if not hundreds of people who have not seen many (or any) fan films will watch that one and declare that it is the 'greatest one of all time.' I find it curious that the hard heads who post here regularly take these comments seriously enough that they feel the need to address why they disagree with them. Half of these people have seen a few films with friends filming themselves clowning around in Trek uniforms, and that's all they are comparing it to.

2) When 'event' fan films happen, some people who have never heard of or watched a fan film watch the event film and become open to watching other Star Trek Fan films. Fan Trek is not a zero sum game. Rather, one great fan film raises audience interest for other fan films. Newbies for one film or film series are potential newbies for all. Rather that being annoyed by those proclaiming Film XYZ 'the Greatest Fan Film of All Time" consider asking them why they think it's better than... e.g., TTI, WEAT, Lolani. Consider using the comment as an opening to lead them to try more.

3) There has clearly been a massive turnover at Phase II. I hope that the new team gets their act together and stabilizes the situation. Then I hope they use their collective wisdom to produced great fan Trek. And I hope some people who are feeling neglected (you know who you are) can hold it together and understand that the production group is in confusion and transition.