Hmmmm interesting info I didn't know. Thanks for sharing.
TUC: Overrated?
- Thread starter Simon Goldfarb
- Start date
Hmmmm interesting info I didn't know. Thanks for sharing.
Well the inherent problem with the movies starting with TVH and really hitting home in the final 2 films was something that no film series can ultimately avoid: Age. Unless you're some over the top ridiculous action schlock like "The Expendables" it's really hard for a lot of people to continue to feel the same about a character as they get older and that they can do the same things in their 20's and 30's as they can in their 60's and 70's. That's why they change James Bond so often, because Connery in Goldfinger and Moore in The Spy Who Loved me were believable. Where Connery in Diamonds are Forever and Moore in "A View to a Kill" just look old and kind of sad trying to do the same things.
That's why I couldn't get all stoked about the last Indy film even before it turned out to be a crap fest. BECAUSE HARRISON FORD WAS IN HIS MID 60's!!!! Is Ford in good shape for his age, yes. But it doesn't change the fact he was 20 years older than the last time we saw him and, aside from a few age jokes here and there, were just supposed to ignore the fact he was now old and still the same bad ass he was in the 80's.
It's like if they put the 1984 Boston Celtics and Los Angeles Lakers on the floor for a best of seven series. Is it still Larry Bird and Magic Johnson out there....yes. Would the product be anywhere close to the level it was in 1984? Hell no. Would it be pretty pathetic to watch...Absolutely. Why because they are now 30 years removed from their primes as athletes.
I know if you go into movies saying "Oh that could never happen in reality about things, you're not going to like many films. But age and the decline of the human body is an immutable and unavoidable fact of life that happens to EVERYONE (Except Christy Brinkley apparently. She's in her 60's and looks almost just like she did in Vacation and it looks natural not that gross plastic surgery face that so many celebs have). And since we all are experiencing or will experience it personally it is just so hard for many people, myself included, to suspend their disbelief that film characters aren't impacted by age, especially when the evidence is right there on the screen when you look at them. Even in "The Dark Knight Rises" they made reference to Bruce Wayne getting older not taking the punishment he used to and Christian Bale was only in his late 30's.
TOS posed a unique problem because it went on so damn long from TV show to TUC. In TMP the characters could pass because, except for Scotty and Kirk's perm, the characters still looked a lot like they did on the show, just a little more mature. Bones always looked old so that wasn't so obvious and Scotty looked so different it was like trying to compare two different people.
It managed to hold up ok through II and III and they even addressed age in II. By TVH cracks were definently starting to show in some characters but because it was a light hearted comedy instead of some space action film it wasn't as obvious. By V it was painfully obvious. Kirk looked all made up and fat, Spock looked wrinkled and grumpy, Bones was anorexic Scotty and Uhuru were fat (The fan dance still gives me nightmares) and only Sulu and Chekov looked like they still were young and fit enough for active service. From a purely physical standpoint they should have called it quits after that. But of course it was such a terrible film they couldn't end it there and the 25th anniversary gave the perfect excuse for one more go and I'm sorry but even though the film was decent the general appearance of the cast, with the exception of maybe Sulu, was pretty pathetic and I think it looks worse and worse with the passage of time as ST fans themselves age and think "Holy Shit did they look old and fat in TUC" Yet were supposed believe, in some ways, they were the same young energetic virile Enterprise crew from TOS. I mean after all starfleet wouldn't send a bunch of fat over the hill officers on such an important mission that had a decent probability of clear thinking and quick reactions to situations occuring.
I can accept a lot of things in film, but the obvious aging of a character and still being told "Oh they're still the same character they were 20-25 years ago is just too much for me to take." I'm 41 and I am in pretty good shape but I will openly admit my body hurts and is noticibly slower than it was at 30 and I don't think I'm quite as quick and organized mentally either. I just can't take films that act as age isn't a factor.
This is why I'm not excited for the next Star Wars film despite having the big 3 in it. Hamill has aged awful, Ford is a grump who reminds me of my grandpa and I haven't seen Fisher lately but can't imagine she could pull off the Jabba slave girl outfit anymore. I don't care if they make their characters fit their age and aren't flying around in the Millennium Falcon and getting into Lightsaber fights, they're still over 30 years older than the last time we saw them and I don't like to see my film heroes age so dramatically. Getting old sucks on its own, I don't need to be reminded of it when I want to escape reality for a few hours.
Was it really from scratch? I know the TMP-TVH bridge was turned into the TNG battle bridge. But I'd always understood that the TFF/TUC bridges were redresses of that set rather than a new one.
I don't think The Undiscovered Country tells us these are the same people they were twenty-five years earlier. There is quite a bit of bitterness from Kirk in regards to the Klingons and, obviously, he wasn't a match for the big, blue guy on Rura Penthe but got lucky. Spock was obviously moving on with his life, McCoy's skill is questioned by Chang and part of that questioning is his age. Sulu has moved on to his own command, Uhura is now chairing seminars at Starfleet HQ and Scott is retiring and buying a boat.
I feel the movie goes out of its way to remind us constantly that this is the last roundup for a group of onetime legends.
Honestly, I feel Kirk being sent was due to strings being pulled by the conspirators. Hoping that his long, tragic history with the Klingons would have him offing Kronos One when things went bad.
YMMV.
All right you have a point that I'm taking it a little too far when I say we were expected to believe they were the same as in TOS. But there was still just too many things, some obvious, some subtle that seemed like the film was saying to me "Oh they're not really THAT old and out of shape and in a pinch could summon up their youthful energy to get out of whatever crisis arose" When in fact yes they WERE that old and fat looking. It wasn't done to the degree as in TFF obviously where we were supposed to believe Shatner was still a possible Mr. Universe contestent and Uhura was an exotic stripper.
I guess it was a catch 22 in a way. You couldn't end it on the TFF for that would be pathetic. But by TUC they were even older looking and seemed like they should have called it quits while they were ahead physically.
In the end TFF F'ed it all up. It was so pathetic that it had to be rectified but the price we paid was seeing TOS crew WELL beyond even the far edge of their prime. It was a price that had to be paid though and they did the best with what they had left I guess and certanily left with more dignity than if TFF had been the curtain call.
I don't think the problem was with the actors getting older, that happens. I don't think Shatner was too old to play Kirk. For 60/61, I thought he looked pretty good in The Undiscovered Country (I remember watching the William Shatner Roast on Comedy Central and he still looked so right sitting in the Captain's chair). The problem was they were never able to successfully inject youth into the film franchise. By the time of TUC, I believe that the plan was to bring TNG to the big screen, so it was no longer important to get the movie franchise younger.
Harve Bennett's Starfleet Academy idea, centered around a young Kirk and Spock had merit and if it hadn't been for TNG, it may well have been made.
It occurs to me the six films coincidentally kind of parallel the three seasons of TOS.
TOS began as a really good series showing us something we hadn't seen before. It really hit its stride about the middle of the first season (I'm going by production order here), and most of the best dramatic episodes of TOS are from the second half of S1 and the first half of S2. The best episodes of the second half of S2 are light-hearted romps: The Trouble With Tribbles, A Piece of the Action and I, Mudd. S3 began with the embarrassingly bad Spock's Brain and was generally sub-par.
The film series began with TMP, a really good movie showing us something we hadn't seen before. It hit its dramatic zenith with TWOK and TSFS, then had a fun light-hearted romp with TVH. TFF and TUC are sub-par, with TFF being widely considered an embarrassment.
(ETA: I thought TTWT and IM were the second half of S2. Double-checking, I see there were actually just before the midpoint. Close enough.)
TOS began as a really good series showing us something we hadn't seen before. It really hit its stride about the middle of the first season (I'm going by production order here), and most of the best dramatic episodes of TOS are from the second half of S1 and the first half of S2. The best episodes of the second half of S2 are light-hearted romps: The Trouble With Tribbles, A Piece of the Action and I, Mudd. S3 began with the embarrassingly bad Spock's Brain and was generally sub-par.
The film series began with TMP, a really good movie showing us something we hadn't seen before. It hit its dramatic zenith with TWOK and TSFS, then had a fun light-hearted romp with TVH. TFF and TUC are sub-par, with TFF being widely considered an embarrassment.
(ETA: I thought TTWT and IM were the second half of S2. Double-checking, I see there were actually just before the midpoint. Close enough.)
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I agree about Kirk's T. It also suggest he had a life, and was not quite the Enterprise monomaniac some regard him as.
The way they dressed Wesley and Jake Sisko was criminal. It was like their parents were still dressing them in romper suits, even in their late teens and early twenties.
Roger Moore did look feeble in his last Bond film (particularly next to Grace Jones, who looked like she might accidentally break him), but Connery looked pretty good in Diamonds. In fact, he still looked pretty tough 10 years later in Never Say Never Again. I guess he just had good genes.
The old cast could work in the new SW, provided they are simply pottering around the homestead offering sage advice. Let's hope JJ watched Indy IV and learned the obvious lesson.
I'm sure we will some a different perspective in Star Wars.
I like TUC because it has a sense of weariness, of rigidity, that age can produce. Spock calls it back a couple of times, that he and Kirk may too old and inflexible to be useful. That the times are changing, but they are not making the change.
To me, one of the great tragedies is the fact that someone so young and idealistic as Valeris would be swept up in the hatred spawned by years of fighting with the Klingons. Kirk's can be understood, but even he was willing to do the mission and work towards unmasking a killer.
If used properly, age can be a tie to reality that some SF films lack. Obi-Wan's comment in "Star Wars" that he is "too old" still doesn't stop him from letting loose with a lightsaber a couple of times. Age doesn't mean you are not part of the action. In point of fact, I have played tennis for ever ten years now but there are 70 year old players who can beat me quite solidly. It's all in how you age and how you use it. I really don't think Kirk did anything unreasonable in TUC, but YMMV
Finally, BillJ made the comment but I will add to it that it portrayed the Klingons as cultured individuals, rather than just brutes or bullies. It also reminded me of a line from "Hunt for Red October."
" It is wise to study the ways of ones adversary."
I think the Klingons appreciated Shakespeare in a different way, and partially as a way to stick it to the humans. Basically, as a way of saying "We know your history better than you do" and then a :P for good measure
At first, I sort of felt the same way about the jeans. Then, I realized that, for us, dungarees were invented almost 150 years ago. That's an incredibly long time for a type of clothing to persevere. There's got to be a reason. Maybe it's just practicality, but whatever the reason, it's not inconceivable that they'll be around in another 150 years.
And yeah, TNG's portrayal of civilian clothing seemed odd. I always think back to that weird shiny blue thing that Riker would wear on occasion.
Maybe it was just comfortable...In A Taste of Armageddon, Ambassador Fox (and especially his aide), wore outfits that seemed right out of The Next Generation equivalent of a J.C. Penney catalog, so I suppose TNG wasn't the only guilty party, we just saw more civilian clothing on the newer show.
Yeah, I thought the jeans and flannel shirt were fine. People have been wearing them since my great great great great grandfather was in diapers.
The go climb a rock t-shirt was painful.
But that's about the worst thing I have to say about my precious TFF.
The go climb a rock t-shirt was painful.
But that's about the worst thing I have to say about my precious TFF.
I'm still amazed that Nick Meyer didn't choose to inherit that lounge with the ship's wheel from Star Trek V. That set piece seems right up his alley.
I'm sure we will some a different perspective in Star Wars.
I like TUC because it has a sense of weariness, of rigidity, that age can produce. Spock calls it back a couple of times, that he and Kirk may too old and inflexible to be useful. That the times are changing, but they are not making the change.
To me, one of the great tragedies is the fact that someone so young and idealistic as Valeris would be swept up in the hatred spawned by years of fighting with the Klingons. Kirk's can be understood, but even he was willing to do the mission and work towards unmasking a killer.
If used properly, age can be a tie to reality that some SF films lack. Obi-Wan's comment in "Star Wars" that he is "too old" still doesn't stop him from letting loose with a lightsaber a couple of times. Age doesn't mean you are not part of the action. In point of fact, I have played tennis for ever ten years now but there are 70 year old players who can beat me quite solidly. It's all in how you age and how you use it. I really don't think Kirk did anything unreasonable in TUC, but YMMV
Finally, BillJ made the comment but I will add to it that it portrayed the Klingons as cultured individuals, rather than just brutes or bullies. It also reminded me of a line from "Hunt for Red October."
" It is wise to study the ways of ones adversary."
I think the Klingons appreciated Shakespeare in a different way, and partially as a way to stick it to the humans. Basically, as a way of saying "We know your history better than you do" and then a :P for good measure
Yeah but Obi Wan was a little bit different than TOS cast. First we had never seen a young Obi Wan then, so there was no comparison to be made and very few Star Wars fans knew Sir Alec when he was a strapping young ass kicker in "Bridge over the River Kwai"
Second he was a Jedi so it was kind of implied that as part of his mastery of the force he could stave off the effects of age somewhat. I mean shit all those midichloreans have to be good for something.
And third, to be quiet honest, he aged better than most of TOS crew. Maybe it was the big robes that hid his frail body or something. But he didn't looked caked and makeup and looked fit enough that, while he wasnt going to be mixing it up in a 150 minute light saber battles like at the end of "Sith" he could still screw up enough energy and mixed with his mastery of the force and skill with a light saber could still kick ass in a pinch, as the mos eisley bar goers found out.
The uniform did nothing to flatter the crew and the make up was atrocious in some cases. I guess "old' is ok if you still look kind of graceful. But old and fat like Kirk and Scotty or old and wrinkled like Spock or old and aneroxic like Mccoy just don't come off as well.
indeed!
Knowing Meyer, he probably wanted to move the old ship's wheel onto the bridge, and got pissed off when someone said no.
For one thing, the writer adds nothing to it. Meyer builds the plot by simply paralleling, in broad strokes, specific current events of the time with altered details and no real context. There's no insight, no real point of view. Gorkon = Gorbachev or Praxis = Chernobyl isn't obvious; it's lazy and unimaginative. Presumably the idea is that if the correspondences are unmistakable then the writer doesn't have to provide any story logic or context to invest them with any narrative significance. I suppose thirteen year-olds might find it clever.
I'm sure we will some a different perspective in Star Wars.
I like TUC because it has a sense of weariness, of rigidity, that age can produce. Spock calls it back a couple of times, that he and Kirk may too old and inflexible to be useful. That the times are changing, but they are not making the change.
To me, one of the great tragedies is the fact that someone so young and idealistic as Valeris would be swept up in the hatred spawned by years of fighting with the Klingons. Kirk's can be understood, but even he was willing to do the mission and work towards unmasking a killer.
If used properly, age can be a tie to reality that some SF films lack. Obi-Wan's comment in "Star Wars" that he is "too old" still doesn't stop him from letting loose with a lightsaber a couple of times. Age doesn't mean you are not part of the action. In point of fact, I have played tennis for ever ten years now but there are 70 year old players who can beat me quite solidly. It's all in how you age and how you use it. I really don't think Kirk did anything unreasonable in TUC, but YMMV
Finally, BillJ made the comment but I will add to it that it portrayed the Klingons as cultured individuals, rather than just brutes or bullies. It also reminded me of a line from "Hunt for Red October."
" It is wise to study the ways of ones adversary."
I think the Klingons appreciated Shakespeare in a different way, and partially as a way to stick it to the humans. Basically, as a way of saying "We know your history better than you do" and then a :P for good measure
Yeah but Obi Wan was a little bit different than TOS cast. First we had never seen a young Obi Wan then, so there was no comparison to be made and very few Star Wars fans knew Sir Alec when he was a strapping young ass kicker in "Bridge over the River Kwai"
Second he was a Jedi so it was kind of implied that as part of his mastery of the force he could stave off the effects of age somewhat. I mean shit all those midichloreans have to be good for something.
And third, to be quiet honest, he aged better than most of TOS crew. Maybe it was the big robes that hid his frail body or something. But he didn't looked caked and makeup and looked fit enough that, while he wasnt going to be mixing it up in a 150 minute light saber battles like at the end of "Sith" he could still screw up enough energy and mixed with his mastery of the force and skill with a light saber could still kick ass in a pinch, as the mos eisley bar goers found out.
The uniform did nothing to flatter the crew and the make up was atrocious in some cases. I guess "old' is ok if you still look kind of graceful. But old and fat like Kirk and Scotty or old and wrinkled like Spock or old and aneroxic like Mccoy just don't come off as well.
Sorry, I don't find any aspect of being old to be unable to be physically able. Kirk and CO didn't "mix it up" either as in the days of old in TUC either, beyond a brief fist fight on Rura Penthe. The ability to shoot should still be a capability for trained individuals, such as Starfleet personnel.
It isn't like Kirk went hand to hand with Chang in a bat'leth battle at the end.
I've noticed an interesting phenomenon about age in real life. When you first see someone you haven't seen in years, the difference is sometimes striking. However, the next time you see them, you don't notice it at all.
The difference being about a year ago: I hadn't see the lady in maybe a dozen or 15 years. Older, but very recognizable. Ran into her about two days ago, I was shocked. Looked twenty years older suddenly.
The difference being about a year ago: I hadn't see the lady in maybe a dozen or 15 years. Older, but very recognizable. Ran into her about two days ago, I was shocked. Looked twenty years older suddenly.
Personally, I LOVE TUC. It's neck-and-neck with TWOK for my favorite ST film, and even edges it out on certain days. Why? Simple:
1) First of all, the CAST. It's always great to see the regular crew, but TUC had probably the finest supporting cast of ANY ST production. Christopher Plummer, David Warner, Kim Cattrall, Kurtwood Smith, Mark Lenard, Michael Dorn, Rene Auberjonois, Brock Peters, John Schuck, even Iman... This film is a murderer's row of talent.
2) I love the LOOK of the film more than any other. The disappointing TFF bridge is revamped into a more pleasing & military-looking design (with the Excelsior bridge as a nice bonus), the Klingons get cool new uniforms with a splash of color, it has a bravura effects/action scene during the anti-gravity assassination on the Klingon ship, great location work in the Rura Penthe and Khitomer Conference scenes that give the story extra scope, and it has some of the most creative alien makeups I've seen in any ST production. They wrung every dollar out of the production budget, and it shows.
3) I love the richness of Nicholas Meyer & Denny Martin Flynn's script. Yeah, it has plot holes (largely due to the haste with which the movie was produced), but it gives everyone in the cast a memorable moment and a significant contribution to the plot. It's jam-packed with cool plot points, interesting guest characters, and references to politics, history, and literature. Unlike a lot of other Star Trek episodes & movies, this one is about a lot more than Star Trek. And it gives the TOS one last great epic adventure to go out on.
4) As a director, Meyer really wrung the best performances out of his cast, especially Shatner. I love the melancholy, flawed & thoughtful guy we see in TWOK and TUC more than the Kirk we see in the other TOS movies. I attribute this to Meyer putting Shatner through more takes than his other directors, forcing the Shat to drop the posturing & become more naturalistic. It works for him.
5) It's consistently FUN. Every scene has something cool in it that makes you smile ("WOW that Praxis explosion!" "Hey, look at that cool Starfleet conference room!" "Hey, nice line of dialogue there..." "Wait, was that Christian Slater?!?"). It's stimulating from beginning to end.
6) And WOW that Cliff Eidelman score... Dark, brooding, suspenseful, reminiscent of Holst's The Planets... It's one of the best ST film scores... probably second only to Jerry Goldsmith's themes for TMP.
Yeah, it has its problems. I wish the plot holes could've been fixed with another rewrite. I wish the budget wasn't so tight at times. I wish they'd been able to shoot the prologue that Meyer & Flynn intended with the gathering of the crew. And as good as Kim Cattrall was, I kind of wish that Kirstie Alley could've returned as Saavik (If nothing else, it would've made the traitor much more surprising and given all the "A lie?" exchanges with Spock extra bite). But I'm happy with the film we got. As a goodbye film for the original crew and as a 25th Anniversary celebration, it was pretty damn good.
1) First of all, the CAST. It's always great to see the regular crew, but TUC had probably the finest supporting cast of ANY ST production. Christopher Plummer, David Warner, Kim Cattrall, Kurtwood Smith, Mark Lenard, Michael Dorn, Rene Auberjonois, Brock Peters, John Schuck, even Iman... This film is a murderer's row of talent.
2) I love the LOOK of the film more than any other. The disappointing TFF bridge is revamped into a more pleasing & military-looking design (with the Excelsior bridge as a nice bonus), the Klingons get cool new uniforms with a splash of color, it has a bravura effects/action scene during the anti-gravity assassination on the Klingon ship, great location work in the Rura Penthe and Khitomer Conference scenes that give the story extra scope, and it has some of the most creative alien makeups I've seen in any ST production. They wrung every dollar out of the production budget, and it shows.
3) I love the richness of Nicholas Meyer & Denny Martin Flynn's script. Yeah, it has plot holes (largely due to the haste with which the movie was produced), but it gives everyone in the cast a memorable moment and a significant contribution to the plot. It's jam-packed with cool plot points, interesting guest characters, and references to politics, history, and literature. Unlike a lot of other Star Trek episodes & movies, this one is about a lot more than Star Trek. And it gives the TOS one last great epic adventure to go out on.
4) As a director, Meyer really wrung the best performances out of his cast, especially Shatner. I love the melancholy, flawed & thoughtful guy we see in TWOK and TUC more than the Kirk we see in the other TOS movies. I attribute this to Meyer putting Shatner through more takes than his other directors, forcing the Shat to drop the posturing & become more naturalistic. It works for him.
5) It's consistently FUN. Every scene has something cool in it that makes you smile ("WOW that Praxis explosion!" "Hey, look at that cool Starfleet conference room!" "Hey, nice line of dialogue there..." "Wait, was that Christian Slater?!?"). It's stimulating from beginning to end.
6) And WOW that Cliff Eidelman score... Dark, brooding, suspenseful, reminiscent of Holst's The Planets... It's one of the best ST film scores... probably second only to Jerry Goldsmith's themes for TMP.
Yeah, it has its problems. I wish the plot holes could've been fixed with another rewrite. I wish the budget wasn't so tight at times. I wish they'd been able to shoot the prologue that Meyer & Flynn intended with the gathering of the crew. And as good as Kim Cattrall was, I kind of wish that Kirstie Alley could've returned as Saavik (If nothing else, it would've made the traitor much more surprising and given all the "A lie?" exchanges with Spock extra bite). But I'm happy with the film we got. As a goodbye film for the original crew and as a 25th Anniversary celebration, it was pretty damn good.
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