TUC: Overrated?

[enterprisecvn65]

I like TUC, but definitely feel it is overrated. It has a sloppy script. It was done fast and cheap and it really shows. It has a very slow and ponderous middle act. And Nick Meyer, who was brilliant with Trek II and witty in Trek IV was just arrogant and self-indulgent in this one. The Shakespeare and "literary relevance" was done with no subtlety and came off as cheesy and pretentious.

There are gigantic logic holes in the plot. How can the Enterprise sensors not detect a torpedo launch point from a cloaked bird of prey? How can internal scanners not locate something as unique as Klingon blood? How can forensics not quickly prove that the Enterprise did not fire torpedoes (heck, modern forensics could probably figure it out..forget about 23rd century)? How do the Klingons not recognize a veridium patch on a high profile criminal accused of murdering their high chancellor? How do the Klingon boarder sensors not differentiate between a Klingon freighter and a "Federation Battlecruiser"... Especially in this time of high tensions (but the universal translator will be recognized??)? The Transporter records wouldn't show the two assassins had beamed from that ship? The whole ruse by Kirk and Spock to lure Valeris into sickbay is nonsensical.

So yeah there's tons of issues that put this as a middle-tier Trek film. But there's some good stuff too. The assassination scene is fantastic. The battle at the end is tense and well-choreographed. The dialogue on Rura Penthe in the prison between Kirk and McCoy is classic. The opening scene with the Praxis explosion and the wave hitting the Excelsior is electrifying. I liked making Valeris the prime assassin and not having it be all the Klingons responsibility.

Overall, it's a fairly enjoyable film, but not nearly the classic that some make it out to be. There's just too many sloppy elements to the script and too many plot holes and non-sensical elements to be considered top-tier.

I have to agree I think Meyer was "let off the leash" a little too much in TUC.

First I totally acknowledge the role he had in TWOK and TVH and the style he brought to the films and he very well may have saved the series with the decisions and contributions he made in TWOK, because if that film got the lukewarm reception TMP had gotten there wasn't going to be a third Trek film.

But in TWOK and TVH he had other people he had to work with and please. Harve Bennett could reign him if he got too over the top. Shatner and Nimoy had to be pleased, Nimoy as a director too in TVH. And I think as a result of all these checks and balances coming together it added up to the perfect mix.

But by TUC Bennett was gone, I don't Shatner really gave a shit and was humbled by TFF and Nimoy didn't seem to be as strong a force as he was before off camera, whether by choice or not.

So Meyer got basically carte blanche and he took full advantage of it throwing in every thing he wanted, no matter how cheesy of self indulgent. Plummer spouting off Shakespeare was obviously supposed to be reminicent of Khan and Moby Dick......But with Khan it worked because he was hell bent on revenge and Moby Dick is perhaps the ultimate revenge story and Khan said lines from it when he was making a point, not just because he was excited or letting people know how well read he was......With Plummer it just looked like a random plot device to make him seem more evil. Clearly given Meyer's love of the classics this was probably mostly his doing.

The lines were cheesier and there were just too many damn scenes where it was "Let's be sure all the actors get in a few lines" Like they wanted to make up in one film for 30 years of Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley getting the good parts and Shatner in particular often making sure he got more dialogue at the expense of the little 4.

I don't know. It's good film, it's just not a classic to me. It was fun in my youth to watch and it was freaking Citizen Kane after TFF, but as I've gotten older more of the camp in it has become more apparent to me. Like when Sulu was saying good bye on the Enterprise viewscreen with the entire Excelsior crew behind him. I honestly expected to see a card on the market with that picture saying "Merry Christmas from Captain Sulu and the crew of the USS Excelsior"

It happens to me as I get older. When I was young I though Return of the Jedi and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom were better than Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark because they had more pure action and humor, but I couldn't understand the subtle things than made Empire and Raiders far superior films. Now I do see those things. TWOK was always my favorite and I appreciate it even more now, but TUC just had elements I didn't notice when I was younger that I do now that make me go "Uhhhhhhh.......Yeah, that really didn't need to be there or could have been done better".

Nothing personal against Meyer, he did a great job in two ST films one of which is the best story, film or TV of anything with the words Star Trek in it in history and rightfully deserves all the respect he gets from Trek fans. But even Michael Jordan had losing teams at the beginning and end of his career. Unless you're Bill Russell very few people go out on top. At least Meyer never reached the embarrassing lows Lucas did with Star Wars and Indy and Berman did with Insurrection and Nemesis.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I found the galley and crew's quarters to be at odds with the oft stated aesthetic of her design. Where did the replicators go?

They never had any. Replicators were a TNG invention. The original series Enterprise always had a galley. The food slots were a delivery system. A magical delivery system, to be sure, but it was always "real food."

McCoy: "I thought the power was off in the galley." (The Corbomite Maneuver)

Plus the turkeys in the galley ovens in Charlie X.

They apparently got their food during resupply stops, such as Starbase 9 before they got shot back in time in Tomorrow is Yesterday. The movies never really talked about food, so there's no reason to believe they had replicators. If any of the films would have introduced them, I would guess TMP, with the much more advanced tech, would have been the appropriate place.

I would say that this movie introduced Kirk as being a slob or, at the very least, had fired his yeoman.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The Undiscovered Country is overrated, and that's for certain. Vger23 covered most of the reasons why. What really got me, though, was the racist attitudes towards Klingons. If nothing else changed, removing, or altering this element would've improved this movie by quite a lot. Kirk was really the only one who had any plausible reason to so distort his own moral centre, for the reason the movie gave: his son's murder. But why is not only the rest of the ENTERPRISE bridge crew subscribing to it, but Admiral Cartwright, as well.

To have an African American actor deliver a speech like what he gave at the Classified Meeting would've been potentially powerful, had the circumstances been completely other. This aspect of the movie just got way out of hand, and kind of lost focus, anyway. Had it been just Kirk expressing this ugly side of himself and learning that his racist-tainted hatred of the Klingons was distorting who he was and distorting the truth of what happened and where the true responsibility for it rested, NOW you've got a powerful message and a very important journey for The Good Captain.

He lost himself for reasons we can all sympathise, but what he did about it was starting to cost him some self respect. And maybe some of the respect of others, around him, too. To see the old Jim Kirk come back, by the end of this movie would've rocked, then. But no, this warped perception of the enemy runs rampant and randomly throughout this movie. Admiral Cartright's disdain for Klingon idealology and past experiences (shared with the audience, by the way - we all know how naughty those Klingons have been) would've been enough motivation, he didn't need all that. Even Uhura, with her, "did you see the way they ATE?!" ... really, this shit was just so out of place and so unnecessary, especially the way it was handled, in this story, I really don't care for this aspect, at all. I think because in the end, it's because it's cheap.

The audience doesn't care for those types of sentiments and they're being manipulated by them into feeling sympathy for the Klingons that could've been acquired in other ways. The Russians and their issues with us never had anything to do with that, either. For someone of Nick Meyer's intelligence and standing in the STAR TREK franchise, it was just in incredibly bad taste. Otherwise, when Meyer showed restraint with it, I felt that his use of Shakespeare was right in line with how it was done in The Original Series. Maybe he didn't see it that way and it was purely coincidental, but nevermind all of that, it was wholly appropriate, until he just went stupid with it. Funny how Meyer never really did much notable outside of the STAR TREK franchise ... makes me wonder!

 

[eyeresist]

At least Meyer never reached the embarrassing lows Lucas did with Star Wars and Indy, and Berman did with Insurrection and Nemesis.

Don't let Spielberg off the hook for Indy IV.

 

[fireproof78]

I like TUC, but definitely feel it is overrated. It has a sloppy script. It was done fast and cheap and it really shows. It has a very slow and ponderous middle act. And Nick Meyer, who was brilliant with Trek II and witty in Trek IV was just arrogant and self-indulgent in this one. The Shakespeare and "literary relevance" was done with no subtlety and came off as cheesy and pretentious.

There are gigantic logic holes in the plot. How can the Enterprise sensors not detect a torpedo launch point from a cloaked bird of prey? How can internal scanners not locate something as unique as Klingon blood? How can forensics not quickly prove that the Enterprise did not fire torpedoes (heck, modern forensics could probably figure it out..forget about 23rd century)? How do the Klingons not recognize a veridium patch on a high profile criminal accused of murdering their high chancellor? How do the Klingon boarder sensors not differentiate between a Klingon freighter and a "Federation Battlecruiser"... Especially in this time of high tensions (but the universal translator will be recognized??)? The Transporter records wouldn't show the two assassins had beamed from that ship? The whole ruse by Kirk and Spock to lure Valeris into sickbay is nonsensical.

So yeah there's tons of issues that put this as a middle-tier Trek film. But there's some good stuff too. The assassination scene is fantastic. The battle at the end is tense and well-choreographed. The dialogue on Rura Penthe in the prison between Kirk and McCoy is classic. The opening scene with the Praxis explosion and the wave hitting the Excelsior is electrifying. I liked making Valeris the prime assassin and not having it be all the Klingons responsibility.

Overall, it's a fairly enjoyable film, but not nearly the classic that some make it out to be. There's just too many sloppy elements to the script and too many plot holes and non-sensical elements to be considered top-tier.

I have to agree I think Meyer was "let off the leash" a little too much in TUC.

First I totally acknowledge the role he had in TWOK and TVH and the style he brought to the films and he very well may have saved the series with the decisions and contributions he made in TWOK, because if that film got the lukewarm reception TMP had gotten there wasn't going to be a third Trek film.

But in TWOK and TVH he had other people he had to work with and please. Harve Bennett could reign him if he got too over the top. Shatner and Nimoy had to be pleased, Nimoy as a director too in TVH. And I think as a result of all these checks and balances coming together it added up to the perfect mix.

But by TUC Bennett was gone, I don't Shatner really gave a shit and was humbled by TFF and Nimoy didn't seem to be as strong a force as he was before off camera, whether by choice or not.

So Meyer got basically carte blanche and he took full advantage of it throwing in every thing he wanted, no matter how cheesy of self indulgent. Plummer spouting off Shakespeare was obviously supposed to be reminicent of Khan and Moby Dick......But with Khan it worked because he was hell bent on revenge and Moby Dick is perhaps the ultimate revenge story and Khan said lines from it when he was making a point, not just because he was excited or letting people know how well read he was......With Plummer it just looked like a random plot device to make him seem more evil. Clearly given Meyer's love of the classics this was probably mostly his doing.

The lines were cheesier and there were just too many damn scenes where it was "Let's be sure all the actors get in a few lines" Like they wanted to make up in one film for 30 years of Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley getting the good parts and Shatner in particular often making sure he got more dialogue at the expense of the little 4.

I don't know. It's good film, it's just not a classic to me. It was fun in my youth to watch and it was freaking Citizen Kane after TFF, but as I've gotten older more of the camp in it has become more apparent to me. Like when Sulu was saying good bye on the Enterprise viewscreen with the entire Excelsior crew behind him. I honestly expected to see a card on the market with that picture saying "Merry Christmas from Captain Sulu and the crew of the USS Excelsior"

It happens to me as I get older. When I was young I though Return of the Jedi and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom were better than Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark because they had more pure action and humor, but I couldn't understand the subtle things than made Empire and Raiders far superior films. Now I do see those things. TWOK was always my favorite and I appreciate it even more now, but TUC just had elements I didn't notice when I was younger that I do now that make me go "Uhhhhhhh.......Yeah, that really didn't need to be there or could have been done better".

Nothing personal against Meyer, he did a great job in two ST films one of which is the best story, film or TV of anything with the words Star Trek in it in history and rightfully deserves all the respect he gets from Trek fans. But even Michael Jordan had losing teams at the beginning and end of his career. Unless you're Bill Russell very few people go out on top. At least Meyer never reached the embarrassing lows Lucas did with Star Wars and Indy and Berman did with Insurrection and Nemesis.

I can understand this sentiment, but without Meyers on-board, it honestly would not have happened. The movie likely could not have been with the budget that Paramount had given it originally, and only due to a leadership change did the film even move forward.

Is it a classic? To me, it is. It was only the second Trek film that I, as a youngster, could sit all the way through without cringing or fast forwarding-TVH managed that.

I am normally not a fan of exploring the darker aspects of humanity and overemphasizing the racism seems a bit much, but I also like the character development. We see a Kirk who has to face some pretty nasty demons, both David's death, and his viewpoint towards Klingons. I doubt it started out as racism, but it became caricature of an enemy that he had fought for a long time.

I also have not always liked the dark aspect of Starfleet, which I'm sure Roddenberry wouldn't approve of if he had his say in the film. However, these attitudes are aspects of humanity, and, while unpleasant, are realistic developments.

Finally, I love Plummer as Chang, and found the Shakespeare quoting to be a bit of fun, over-the-top, hamming it up, mocking of the enemy. I think that Meyer did it to give more timeless feel, rather than trying to do TWOK again. Khan's flows from memorizing it out of a vengeance drive, while Chang did it out of a sense of fun. At least to me.

Oh, Spielberg also deserves mention in the Lucas Lows

 

[dub]

And that scene at the very end where they'e all standing heroically in front of the crowd, like someone said to me once "It was like they were all posing for a picture that noone took."

Yes, I found that moment rather cheesy.

It is what it is, it was a picture for the audience, as these characters were being sent off after 25 years on screen. That part gets a pass from me, its essentially breaking the 4th wall but it works.

It gets a pass from me too...barely. It IS cheesy and odd. Everyone is clapping because of what Kirk said and then what he and the Klingon said to each other, but then the others start walking up there to pose with him as if saying, "give me some credit! I'm a hero too!" To me, the rest of the lot should have just stayed put and joined in the applause.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

At least Meyer never reached the embarrassing lows Lucas did with Star Wars and Indy, and Berman did with Insurrection and Nemesis.

Don't let Spielberg off the hook for Indy IV.

Yeah that was disappointing. I have to admit I was never that pumped over a 65 year old Indy and Marion when they announced the film and the fact Lucas was in on it when he had a 20+ year and counting history of clearly having forgot how to make a film whose main attractions weren't as much CGI as he could cram in and childlike jokes. But still I hoped that Spielberg had at least some of the "magic" touch left and could reign George enough to make it worthwhile.

Sadly I was wrong. The only consolation I take is that after the prequels and all the changes to the Star Wars OT I wasn't going to let George fool me again, so I was determined to wait until reviews came in before I decided to go see it. Still haven seen it until this day, but I've seen enough in reviews and heard enough opinions to clearly tell me that crazy ol George got his way once again and let a great franchise drop to humilitating lows and apparently Steven either didn't have the touch either or just wilted under George's iron fist.

Having not seen it I can't comment on much other than that clearly George went CGIgasmic again, showing he either lost the ability to learn or doesn't care that was one of the major problems with the prequels. And that Marion reminded me of the Joker, especially all made up for her wedding.

Things like this are why I don't mind that a show like Arrested Development bought it after 3 seasons. At least it went out every bit as good as it was at its best and didn't do the long decent into crapness that seems to happen to most successful TV/Movies that are around for a while.

 

[Captrek]

Indy IV isn't that bad. It's nowhere near as good as the original trilogy, but I wouldn't equate it with crap like Insurrection or The Phantom Menace.

 

[Smellmet]

I can't express how much I despise Indy IV. It's the only film I've ever seen at the cinema where I left the theatre feeling angry.

In fact it does not exist in my world. Along with Superman IV The Quest for Peace.

I thought the Phantom Menace was a far better movie.

 

[Cyke101]

[
McCoy: "I thought the power was off in the galley." (The Corbomite Maneuver)

Plus the turkeys in the galley ovens in Charlie X.

Speaking of which, I distinctly remember my stomach growling when Waleris waporized that pot to reveal the yummy-looking mashed potatoes. And in the background was, indeed, a turkey. Mmm mmm.

 

[pfontaine2]

I've mentioned on other threads that Trek 6 is perhaps my least favorite of the Trek films. There's so much in it that I just can't accept for various reasons:

1. Everyone except for Spock all seem so grumpy throughout the first act. Kirk wants the Klingon Empire to die. This mission is the last place the crew of the Enterprise want to be. The Enterprise crew always seemed much more open minded and engaged in their roles. In Trek 6, they all act more adult and realistic but they just seem so damned unhappy.

2. I know this is silly but I hate the big clocks on the bridge. They were never there before but the story dictates that we be constantly reminded how much time is left before everyone needs to reach Khitomer.

3. Spock's quarters. I always imagined him living a more austere existence. Now he's got silverware to drink out of and paintings on the wall. Yes, this is the reborn Spock who perhaps is different than the original Spock but I've always seen him as a monk/scientist and now he's acquired a taste for the finer things in life.

4. Is it me or does Spock seem romantically interested in Valeris? That scene in his quarters where they share a drink makes me uncomfortable. She clearly looks up to him as a mentor but his sharing a drink with her seems strangely intimate.

5. All the Klingons seem so un-Klingon-like. Gorkon is just so calm, as if he downed a couple dozen tranquilizers before beaming aboard the Enterprise. Chang keeps spouting Shakespeare for some strange reason. I know the Klingons are desperate for help and are probably trying to act diplomatically but Meyer and Nimoy have smoothed all the edges off the Klingons until they are just boring.

6. Spock's mind rape of Valeris remains my single most disliked scene in all of Trek. I understand his need for information but the way he forcefully restrains Valeris and extracts information from her is incredibly unpleasant. The fact that everyone stands there and watches makes it doubly repulsive. I would have preferred if Spock requested an empty room and the whole scene happened off-camera.

7. The pro-military industrial complex sentiments of Cartright and Colonel West in the Special Edition seem so out of place in Starfleet. I understand that Meyer and Nimoy were trying to make a point about our own military but it could have been done in a more subtle manner.

8. The Scooby-Doo reveal at the end of the Special Edition makes me laugh.

9. The last ten minutes of the movie, from the resolution at Khitomer to the signatures at the end does nothing for me. Yes, they've saved the universe one more time but I would have loved to see them return to Starfleet as heroes rather than be told to return to be decommissioned. Don't any of these people have lives outside of Starfleet? I think I would have enjoyed seeing our characters return to a life outside of Starfleet rather than them flying into the sun, their fates somewhat uncertain.

The movie was a reaction to the news of the day and the fall of the Soviet Union and the incident at Chernobyl. For me, the analogies and metaphors all hit a bit too close to home. I could feel Meyer and Nimoy's desire to make a relevant film but it smacked of preachiness.

I really wanted to like the movie but I just can't. It's the one Trek film I've never purposely wanted to watch again. If I catch it on TV, I'll check it out but otherwise I don't go out of my way to watch it.

 

[CoveTom]

Questions: Is the TUC bridge set larger than the TMP/TFF set? It looks larger. Was it a redress of the Excelsior bridge?

A brand new bridge set was built from scratch for TFF. I'm not certain how its size compared to that of the set used in TMP-TVH.

However, as was mentioned upthread, the TUC set is actually the same set used in TFF, just redressed. It's redressed quite effectively, in my opinion, because you can believe its an entirely different bridge from the one we saw in TFF. As opposed to, say, the redressing of the Enterprise bridge for the Reliant or the Grissom where they are still obviously the same set. But it is, in fact, the same set, and thus is the same size.

And even though my viewpoint is in the minority, I still prefer the TFF version to the TUC version.

 

[BillJ]

I tend to like how the characters are portrayed in The Undiscovered Country. They feel like real people who have been fighting an enemy for thirty-plus years and are simply tired. Their emotions have taken over.

 

[BillJ]

Questions: Is the TUC bridge set larger than the TMP/TFF set? It looks larger. Was it a redress of the Excelsior bridge?

A brand new bridge set was built from scratch for TFF. I'm not certain how its size compared to that of the set used in TMP-TVH.

However, as was mentioned upthread, the TUC set is actually the same set used in TFF, just redressed. It's redressed quite effectively, in my opinion, because you can believe its an entirely different bridge from the one we saw in TFF. As opposed to, say, the redressing of the Enterprise bridge for the Reliant or the Grissom where they are still obviously the same set. But it is, in fact, the same set, and thus is the same size.

And even though my viewpoint is in the minority, I still prefer the TFF version to the TUC version.

I think the TUC bridge is wider. There seems to be more space between the turbolifts.

 

[Captrek]

Speaking of which, I distinctly remember my stomach growling when Waleris waporized that pot to reveal the yummy-looking mashed potatoes.

I'd like to see that setting used on a person, vaporizing the skin and leaving the internals behind. With the internals looking as fake as the potatoes, of course.

 

[BigJake]

How do you feel about it?

The weakest of Nicholas Meyers' entries in Trek, for my money. It got a lot of mileage out of simply being better than The Final Frontier, which was true but also not saying much.

The ham-handed Chernobyl allegory was an eye-roller even then (one of the worst pre-NuTrek entries in the Trek-seeming-not-to-grasp-how-big-space-is sweepstakes), and it was rather underwhelming on the action front. There were some great moments of humour, and watching Christopher Plummer rip up the scenery as a Klingon was good fun... but overall it's a bit on the mediocre side. Not one of the films I'll ever be tempted to own or rewatch.

 

[johnjm22]

5. All the Klingons seem so un-Klingon-like. Gorkon is just so calm, as if he downed a couple dozen tranquilizers before beaming aboard the Enterprise. Chang keeps spouting Shakespeare for some strange reason. I know the Klingons are desperate for help and are probably trying to act diplomatically but Meyer and Nimoy have smoothed all the edges off the Klingons until they are just boring..

I love how the Klingons are portrayed in TUC. It's one of my favorite things about the movie. It always annoys me when they're portrayed as meatheads. Here, in TUC, they're more intellectual, which is consistent with a species that would be technologically advanced.

 

[BigJake]

^ This I agree with.

 

[Smellmet]

I don't accept that TUC gets a good reputation simply because it was better that The Final Frontier.

 

[fireproof78]

5. All the Klingons seem so un-Klingon-like. Gorkon is just so calm, as if he downed a couple dozen tranquilizers before beaming aboard the Enterprise. Chang keeps spouting Shakespeare for some strange reason. I know the Klingons are desperate for help and are probably trying to act diplomatically but Meyer and Nimoy have smoothed all the edges off the Klingons until they are just boring..

I love how the Klingons are portrayed in TUC. It's one of my favorite things about the movie. It always annoys me when they're portrayed as meatheads. Here, in TUC, they're more intellectual, which is consistent with a species that would be technologically advanced.

I like that there is variety in the Klingon cohort, that Chang, the seasoned warrior is outspoke, while Gorkon, the politician, seems willing to allow things to play out for a while before commenting. We even have Colonel Worf presenting evidence in front of a Klingon court, which felt far more procedural than Klingon law would come to be presented later.

Actually, all the characters felt more fleshed out to me, and there was a certain fatigue that was understandable from how long the crew had been in service. It took a more human view that after years and years of looking at each other as enemies that it would be difficult to regard the other as any more than an enemy.

Maybe I am removed enough from the events of the Soviet Union's fall, but still remember it as being an event for TUC to impact me in a different way. I don't pick up on any preachiness from TUC, beyond the enemies need to be friends bit, but that was in "Errand of Mercy." I know it is more heavy handed in the overt, 1-to-1 representation, but it still a film that has enough Trek lore to it that I enjoy it.