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TUC: Overrated?

I'm a big fan of the film, in spite of its flaws. The story does seem to be a bit on the rushed side if one scrutinises it too much, but it does the job that it set out to and sends the crew off on one last adventure and I agree with whichever poster it was who earlier suggested it to be a "TOS tropes greatest hits", which I think it does perfectly.

What I like:

The mixture of Klingon foreheads: from Chang's almost TOS-style smoothness (and frankly, I think that looks like a better "this is what the Klingons were supposed to be like" than TMP and I can imagine that they are like that under the hair) to the inbetween simple ridges on some of them and the more TNG-style full on pasties on others, it makes it look like there is some variation to the species.

The last ten minutes are, for me, note perfect. The way the Enterprise-A and the Excelsior come into shot over Khitomer, the warm exchange between Captains Kirk and Sulu right up to the final line just slay me every single time. Perhaps the signatures add a little too much egg to the pudding, but I can even forgive that as it was the last time we saw some of them on a non-fan production. It's a much, much more poignant farewell than Generations and, much as some part of that movie are fun, I think it's a shame the TOS era wasn't left here.

I like the "original Klingon" Shakespeare schitck, not just for it being a historical reference, but also because I think it just adds to the differences between Gorkon and Chang. When Gorkon says it, I get the impression that he's trying (and clearly failing) to make a joke to break the tension somewhat. David Warner has a twinkle in his eye that seems to take the bite out somewhat. Chang on the other hand really seems to believe that Shakespeare is superior in Klingon,which I take as him either not wanting or not being able to accept that times had changed and what it meant to be Klingon just a few months before is going to stop them from surviving. He seems to keep his blinkered view right up until the end when he quotes "To be or not to be" in English as the torpedo homes in on the BoPs "exhaust fumes". That was him, IMO, finally accepting that truth that Gorkon had accepted long before - that the Klingons ARE no longer the power they once were.

I like the Rura Penthe sequence, knee-genitals, super secret squirrel space detect-me-anywhere-patch and all. The changeling stuff was pretty cool, even if the effects have dated somewhat, and I recall getting excited when DS9 started in the UK that we would be seeing another one, only to be mildly miffed that Odo was a different species of shape shifter!

What I disliked:

The terrible "Uhura needs a massive phrase book to speak Klingon" scene. I hate it. Uhura should at least be competant enough in Klingon to be able to pronounce it without stumbling like she did, let alone need a flipping book to find the right words.

Valeris is obvious as the traitor from the beginning. She just doesn't seem to fit in at all, not even a little bit, and Spock just seems like a bit of a twit not to notice that she's clearly hiding something. Personally, I think this was down to how Kim Caterall's acting more than the writing, as she seemed to be playing a parody of a Vulcan (or, as I thought for most of my first viewing, a Romulan undercover as a Vulcan).

The aforementioned "Scooby Doo" moment with Colonel West is a little too much at that point in the movie. We've already seen some Klingons involved in the plot, so it would make some sense that there was at least one in Azetbur's group as a mole.

Scotty's "Klingon bitch" line. Far too over the top and totally unecessary.
 
The aforementioned "Scooby Doo" moment with Colonel West is a little too much at that point in the movie. We've already seen some Klingons involved in the plot, so it would make some sense that there was at least one in Azetbur's group as a mole.

Scotty's "Klingon bitch" line. Far too over the top and totally unecessary.

Thankfully neither of those scenes are in the theatrical cut. Which is available on Blu-ray.
 
I feel that TUC is overrated. Many others have enumerated the film's flaws, so I won't rehash them.

The one thing I will comment on is the allegory to the end of the Cold War. My problem with it is that if that's what the film is supposed to be about, it feels completely wrong. In my experience, people in the U.S. at least were generally happy and relieved to see the Cold War come to an end. Here we have the TOS characters acting all somber and talking about being afraid of the future. You'd think it was about the Cold War somewhere between the Soviets getting the bomb and the Cuban Missile Crisis, not Glasnost.

That's because the movie is only playing at being an allegory to the end of the Cold War. What it's really about is the TOS crew being formally put out to pasture in favor of TNG. Peace with the Klingons is symbolic of TNG. The somberness and bitter attitudes make a lot more sense in that context.

Years ago, somebody in these parts made a good point when they noted that it may have been intentional that the main bad guy in this film is a bald, Shakespeare-quoting Brit....

Speaking of which, I distinctly remember my stomach growling when Waleris waporized that pot to reveal the yummy-looking mashed potatoes.

I'd like to see that setting used on a person, vaporizing the skin and leaving the internals behind. With the internals looking as fake as the potatoes, of course.
Perhaps the mashed potatoes were damaged from being in contact with a vaporized object...like Spock in "The Omega Glory".

That was one thing that I think made Star Trek III work: simply seeing the characters out of uniform, wearing normal clothes.
Except for Chekov...what the hell was he wearing?
 
The one thing I will comment on is the allegory to the end of the Cold War. My problem with it is that if that's what the film is supposed to be about, it feels completely wrong. In my experience, people in the U.S. at least were generally happy and relieved to see the Cold War come to an end. Here we have the TOS characters acting all somber and talking about being afraid of the future. You'd think it was about the Cold War somewhere between the Soviets getting the bomb and the Cuban Missile Crisis, not Glasnost.

I'm not sure the military-industrial complex was as happy about the end of the Cold War as the general population. If I was doing a job with certain expectations for thirty-plus years and then one day I came in and the parameters of the job were being totally changed, I'm sure I'd have some doubts about the changes.
 
Christopher Plummer is Canadian, isn't he, not British?

The aforementioned "Scooby Doo" moment with Colonel West is a little too much at that point in the movie. We've already seen some Klingons involved in the plot, so it would make some sense that there was at least one in Azetbur's group as a mole.

Scotty's "Klingon bitch" line. Far too over the top and totally unecessary.

Thankfully neither of those scenes are in the theatrical cut. Which is available on Blu-ray.

What are the special features like on the Blu? If it's the same as the special ed. DVD, I'll just suck it up and stick with what I have. I first saw it on home video, so what I see now is what I've always seen.
 
The one thing I will comment on is the allegory to the end of the Cold War. My problem with it is that if that's what the film is supposed to be about, it feels completely wrong. In my experience, people in the U.S. at least were generally happy and relieved to see the Cold War come to an end. Here we have the TOS characters acting all somber and talking about being afraid of the future. You'd think it was about the Cold War somewhere between the Soviets getting the bomb and the Cuban Missile Crisis, not Glasnost.

After doing something for so long,
I'm not sure the military-industrial complex was as happy about the end of the Cold War as the general population. If I was doing a job with certain expectations for thirty-plus years and then one day I came in and the parameters of the job were being totally changed, I'm sure I'd have some doubts about the changes.

Indeed. It seems to be an expectation that Kirk could not possibly have some ingrained reactions to facing down Kingons as enemies for the longest time that he could not possibly react the way that he did.

Suddenly, from the top down, he is told that peace needs to be made and that the Klingons are the ones reaching out, rather than the Federation.

I get that it is a Cold War analogy, and all that, but I don't regard that as a bad thing. Maybe I'm too far removed from the Cold War, only remembering the fall of the Berlin Wall, to appreciate the overtness of the analogy, but this never bothered me.
 
It's not just Kirk's attitude...the tone of the whole film is wrong, right down to the score. It might have helped if there were any characters in the film who were genuinely happy about the prospect of peace. Its only champions make it seem like a Vulcan thing.

If it's supposed to be an allegory to the end of the Cold War, then what's it trying to tell us about it? That the end of the Cold War was a dire and frightful thing? That might have worked with the hindsight of 9/11, but that was still 10 years in the future of the people making the film.

It was resignation to the end of the TOS era and the ascension of TNG...that's what the glum attitude of TUC was really about.
 
1) First of all, the CAST. It's always great to see the regular crew, but TUC had probably the finest supporting cast of ANY ST production. Christopher Plummer, David Warner, Kim Cattrall, Kurtwood Smith, Mark Lenard, Michael Dorn, Rene Auberjonois, Brock Peters, John Schuck, even Iman... This film is a murderer's row of talent.

IMO, Cattrall's performance in this film is rather poor. It's fun to see Dorn, but his performance is nothing special either. As for Auberjonois, he only appears in a couple of really unnecessary scenes in the DE.

But the rest are pretty good.
 
Playing a Vulcan is tough, as we've seen.

Nimoy and Lenard set the standard, and the rest have had to rely on direction to find their characters. Some were more successful than others.

To me, Valeris was a convincing Vulcan, much more than either of the two Saaviks, and more than any others up until T'Pol ... and that's debatable. Kim Cattrall played it as a young, arrogant, and inexperienced Vulcan Starfleet officer. I think she did a great job.
 
1) First of all, the CAST. It's always great to see the regular crew, but TUC had probably the finest supporting cast of ANY ST production. Christopher Plummer, David Warner, Kim Cattrall, Kurtwood Smith, Mark Lenard, Michael Dorn, Rene Auberjonois, Brock Peters, John Schuck, even Iman... This film is a murderer's row of talent.

IMO, Cattrall's performance in this film is rather poor. It's fun to see Dorn, but his performance is nothing special either. As for Auberjonois, he only appears in a couple of really unnecessary scenes in the DE.

But the rest are pretty good.

It's not just the cast, it's how it's used.

I've seen a few movies with AMAZING casts end up being rather dull. Bridge Too Far comes to mind since it features a TON of my favorite actors, (Sean Connery AND Gene Hackman in the SAME film??? Too bad it wasn't a better movie.)

I would say half of those actors from TUC were given thankless roles:

1) John Schuck and Mark Lenard barely said anything. (Though I have to admit that their presence was still more than welcome.)

2) Col. Worf was cool to see, but he's there to get his ass kicked by Chang. They should've made Col. Worf an older man. There's little to distinguish the two Worfs.

3) Rene Auberjoinis ended up on the cutting room floor, which is easy to see since Col. West was not integral to the story and cheapened the look of the movie with an old fashioned flip-page-board and laser pointer.

4) I was not particularly impressed with Kim Cattral. She's just not as sexy as Kirstie Alley in TWOK, even though Cattral is a very sexy lady. The haircut with shaved sideburns was AWFUL. She's obviously a Saavik clone.

5) Only Plummer, Warner and Iman had good, juicy roles.
 
It's not just Kirk's attitude...the tone of the whole film is wrong, right down to the score. It might have helped if there were any characters in the film who were genuinely happy about the prospect of peace. Its only champions make it seem like a Vulcan thing.

If it's supposed to be an allegory to the end of the Cold War, then what's it trying to tell us about it? That the end of the Cold War was a dire and frightful thing? That might have worked with the hindsight of 9/11, but that was still 10 years in the future of the people making the film.

It was resignation to the end of the TOS era and the ascension of TNG...that's what the glum attitude of TUC was really about.
Well, being a person who, for the longest time, actively feared change in his life, I think the movie speaks to me on a level that is hard to convey.

I think that Kirk's coming face to face with his fear, and dealing with it, and Spock's own struggles, made the film more palpable to me.

In typical Meyer fashion, you have characters who must learn the same listen. One does, to his success and another does not, to their failure and ultimate demise.

The Cold War analogy is lost on me simply because the characters are experiencing such a profound and visceral change, requiring a recognition of previously held beliefs, ones that had long been planted, but never fully recognized.

Also, as a brief aside to no one in particular, the Cold War analogy didn't bother me because Trek had done on the nose analogies before

I think the message is quite clear ;)
 
The haircut with shaved sideburns was AWFUL
Yes I remember thinking 'WTF?!' when I saw pics of her in various magazines before I saw the movie. She was obviously meant to be Savvik 2.0 but with a crazy haircut. I didn't really know who Kim Catrell was back then but after saw stuff like Big Trouble in Little China etc and thought 'that's Valerus?!' she was pretty much unrecognisable in VI (maybe that was the idea?) IMO she should've looked more like the Kim Catrell from that era (Big Trouble in Little China etc) longer hair, no shaved sideburns, a real Vulcan babe (like Alley Savvik)
 
Posted this on the Literature board but applies here :
Was looking at the VI Cinefantastique from 91 and VI was considered better than II in the Altman sidebar reviews: (out of **** stars)
TMP **½
TWOK ***½ ("Until VI this was widely considered the best of the movie lot..")
TSFS **½
TVH ***
TFF **½
TUC ***¾ ("this impressive capper on a 25year voyage is the best of the film series....boasting the best SFX of the series and one of the greatest space battles ever committed to celluloid")

I think lot of fans considered VI so good at the time it bested II. I know I did. II was 10 years old and VI felt new, fresh, almost like a WOK for the 90s. (of course in hindsight I don't think is in the same league. And In the years since II has become like this almost mythical, iconic movie like Empire Strikes Back. I guess it was back then too but now even more so)
 
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The Cold War analogy is lost on me simply because the characters are experiencing such a profound and visceral change, requiring a recognition of previously held beliefs, ones that had long been planted, but never fully recognized.

Also, as a brief aside to no one in particular, the Cold War analogy didn't bother me because Trek had done on the nose analogies before

I think the message is quite clear ;)
See, that's just it....That aspect of the story worked for you in a way that had nothing to do with the Cold War, and that's great. But the "analogy" bugs me because it wasn't on the nose...it was just window dressing. It didn't say anything about the post-Cold War situation as it existed at the time that seemed authentic or relevant to the real world. It did, however, say a lot about resentment towards the ascension of TNG, if one looks at it from that angle....
 
I was not particularly impressed with Kim Cattral. She's just not as sexy as Kirstie Alley in TWOK, even though Cattral is a very sexy lady. The haircut with shaved sideburns was AWFUL. She's obviously a Saavik clone.

THANK YOU for bringing this up. God, that looked horrible.

Whether a Saavik clone (which she clearly was) or not, the problem with this character is that it makes Spock come off as a terrible judge of character. He had all this time and hope invested in her, only to essentially be betrayed. It's a rather bleak scenario.

Poor Spock: basically the same thing happened to him in The Way to Eden. Adam, in some ways, actually seemed to form more or less a friendship with him. Everyone else Spock knows seems to look to him for complex answers, or to his immense technical skills. Adam was completely different, acknowledging a mutual interest in music. I'm sure that neither Kirk or McCoy never related to him on that level. I really enjoy that aspect of the episode.

Anyone who has an interest none of their friends share can relate to this. I don't care if someone is a Vulcan or not: betrayal is painful. :(
 
The Cold War analogy is lost on me simply because the characters are experiencing such a profound and visceral change, requiring a recognition of previously held beliefs, ones that had long been planted, but never fully recognized.

Also, as a brief aside to no one in particular, the Cold War analogy didn't bother me because Trek had done on the nose analogies before

I think the message is quite clear ;)
See, that's just it....That aspect of the story worked for you in a way that had nothing to do with the Cold War, and that's great. But the "analogy" bugs me because it wasn't on the nose...it was just window dressing. It didn't say anything about the post-Cold War situation as it existed at the time that seemed authentic or relevant to the real world. It did, however, say a lot about resentment towards the ascension of TNG, if one looks at it from that angle....

I'm not sure I follow the resentment angle, given that they used TNG to help promote this film, and the anniversary coming up. I am afraid I don't follow :confused:

As for the Cold War thing, I never read the movie in terms of how the world would be AFTER the Cold War, but how people would respond to enemies as friends, and the changes that such a conflicting would be received.

I don't know but to me it says that at the end of the Cold War people will have trouble adjusting and be willing to help an enemy in trouble.

It is, perhaps, a simplistic story, but I still see elements of relevance. Perhaps not overt ones, but still good points.

To me, it is a multi-layered story, taking the large, political movements of the Federation and Klingon Empire and bringing down to the personal level of how it impacts the crew. More interesting to me when it gets to the character level and their personal beliefs.

YMMV :)
 
Hasn't Cattrall been quoted as saying that she chose Valeris' hairstyle herself? I seem to recall this but don't have time to research it.
 
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