8X06 "The Caretaker" Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!

[Mr Awe]

^ Relationship angst isn't why I watch Doctor Who. You have own reasons and your opinion on the matter.

 

[Professor Zoom]

^ Relationship angst isn't why I watch Doctor Who. You have own reasons and your opinion on the matter.

Well. Yeah. So do you.

I'm sorry, I thought I was on a discussion board. Not a Just Post Thoughts Board.

Carry on.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Companions in nuWho have their lives and relationships more fleshed out now just like characters in TNG and DS9 had theirs more fleshed out than in the original Star Trek. It's true of modern tv shows in general. There are still plot-based shows with one-dimensional characters but there's no reason why giving characters a rounded life and personality should detract from the enjoyment. Is Sherlock any the poorer for the Sherlock/John dynamic?

I think DW has a good balance in giving the companions a personality and rounded life without taking away from the main man or the entertainment and escapism. I could take or leave Clara last season but she's really come into her own this year. I think she and Capaldi have gelled really well and she now feels like The Companion as oppose to Amy's replacement, which is how I viewed her last year.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Relationship angst isn't why I watch Doctor Who. You have own reasons and your opinion on the matter.

Well. Yeah. So do you.

I'm sorry, I thought I was on a discussion board. Not a Just Post Thoughts Board.

Carry on.

I didn't say you shouldn't dicuss it. But, from my point of view, I don't have much more to say than I didn't like those aspects of the story. I just don't watch DW for that. Fortunately, I did like other things about the story.

But, to be clear, I'm not talking about going to 1 dimensional characters. But fleshing them out doesn't mean have to watch them sit on a coach talking about their relationship!

I'm glad it's your cup of tea though.

Mr Awe

 

[Professor Zoom]

I could take or leave Clara last season but she's really come into her own this year. I think she and Capaldi have gelled really well and she now feels like The Companion as oppose to Amy's replacement, which is how I viewed her last year.

Very much agreed. Last year she was a shallow plot device. A not particularly interesting mystery to be solved. I mean, really, Doctor, after all the things you've seen, Clara is THE impossible Girl? Really?

But, once that was shed she began to be more interesting and I think more so with Capaldi.

But, to be clear, I'm not talking about going to 1 dimensional characters. But fleshing them out doesn't mean have to watch them sit on a coach talking about their relationship!

They weren't just talking about their relationship. But Clara's relationship with the Doctor. And Danny was basically warning her about the Doctor. And the fact that she wasn't afraid of doing things when, in fact, she should be.

It's setting up the rest of the story.

I'm glad it's your cup of tea though.

Mr Awe

Thanks. I would rather have this than the companions in the classic series, which for the most part where there to just ask questions so we could get exposition out.

In fact, I would argue, for me, it's a much more escapist than just the romps of yesteryear as it's functioning on a bunch of different levels.

Thanks.

 

[Stevil2001]

Yeah, I always liked Jenna Coleman's performance, but this season I feel like she's finally been given material worth performing.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

I also agree with the comment on the soap opera aspect. I know that we've had River & the Doctor and 'Rose Loves the Doctor and Loses Him' and other story lines, but Danny & Clara sitting on the couch talking about how they feel about everything plus all the tension and jealousy and drama between Clara & the Doctor... What is this- "As the Tardis Turns"?

No, it's not. For some reason, genre fans seem to think that every time a character talks about his feelings instead of talking about robots and dragons and death rays, it automatically tumbles into the sick and icky world of "soap operas". Nothing could be more wrong.

Characters talking about their feelings is something you're likely to encounter in every genre and in every series, from Shakespeare to Breaking Bad and from Star Trek to Harry Potter. It's also quite frequent in real life. In fact, the only genre where those types of scenes are not likely to be encountered is children's television.

Soap operas, on the other hand, are a popular form of serialized melodrama, featuring heavily stereotyped characters and stock plots because they're mass produced and done on the cheap.

If comparing current Doctor Who episodes with soap operas is your way of saying that you don't find these scenes convincing, I think you'd better address specifically what it is about those scenes that you think doesn't work instead of resorting to what is ultimately a meaningless blanket statement.

Hmmmm.... The term 'soap opera' may be more of a loaded term than I had realized....

First of all, I actually DO appreciate (and enjoy) that there are complex (and evolving!) personal relationships presented and explored in the TV series created after the popular television programs that came out in the 1960s. The relationships seen in 'Hill Street Blues' created a much richer and interesting show for me than the straight-forward good-guys-vs.-bad guys shows like 'Dragnet' ("Just the facts, Ma'am."). I enjoyed TOS, but the writers for TNG (and DS9, etc.) created much more complex characters and intriguing story lines by exploring character's histories and relationships, IMO. I welcomed the change, but many did note that this was adding a 'soap opera' element to these prime time genre shows.

In the science fiction TV shows that I enjoy, I feel that there is a good balance between action and personal drama. Maybe some episodes are more action-oriented and others are more focused on personal drama, but when viewed over an entire season, there is a good balance over all. For MY own tastes/preferences, "The Caretaker" drifted too far into the personal relationships drama at the expense of the action, considering the threat of a killer robot with sufficient firepower sufficient to destroy the earth's population.

I know that not everyone agrees with this point of view, but -in a similar way- I did not care for the scene in STID where -in the middle of a dangerous mission- Uhura's character felt it was the time & place to argue with Spock about their relationship in front of Kirk, taking it to the point of telling her Captain to essentially 'shut up & keep out of it'.

In 'Best of Both Worlds' there was a competition (regarding strategy) and some personal animosity between Shelby & Riker that was negatively influencing their efforts as a team to defeat the Borg. That was very good stuff. What would have been bad (IMHO) would have been for Riker to have developed romantic feelings for Shelby (or maybe she was an old flame from Academy days) and Troi becomes jealous and resentful, leading to complications with Riker that distracts his focus, leading him to make a critical mistake during a battle with the Borg cube... etc.,....

But then again, this is Doctor Who, not Masterpiece Theater. It is a family show that has some 'unrealistic lightness' and humor in tone, even when confronting certain disaster ("Care for a Jelly Baby?"....).

In short, I would have preferred that this episode warranted a TV Guide Listing that read like this:
"The Caretaker" The Doctor goes undercover at Clara's school where she and her boyfriend/fellow teacher struggle to defeat a killer robot.
rather than this:
"The Caretaker" The Doctor's suspicion and jealousy of Clara's personal life on Earth complicate matters as he attempts to head off disaster at Clara's school. Danny's growing concern about what secrets Clara is keeping from him puts him in danger, while Clara herself questions the strain that she is experiencing by maintaining the secrets that she is keeping from both men.

I may be being unfairly critical of this episode, but the personal drama scenes did not work for me as being placed in this episode. Perhaps I need to watch it again..... !

 

[Sindatur]

Although it definitely influenced 12's relationship with Clara from the start, I'm not sure the Doctor is any longer jealous as a boyfriend, I think the acceptance that he's not sunk in before this episode. To me, it seemed more that he is now accepting his role as "Daddy", rather than as jealous boyfriend. Couple that with his amplified fear of Soldiers in this Incarnation, and I think he didn't really act much differently than a hard headed potential father-in-law that feared Soldiers (For example, imagine Meathead and Gloria are Edith's parents and Archie Bunker, a former soldier, moved in with them and their daughter Edith).

He definitely started this Incarnation, trying to find his way, because a romantic relationship with Clara was off the table, but, I think he came to accept that before he showed up at the School as The Caretaker

I don't think the Final Showdown between Danny and The Doctor works as written (I just have to do one thing, be good enough for you) if the Doctor isn't just a "mother Hen" of a Father figure, rather than a jealous Ex-Boyfriend

 

[Worf2DS9]

We're being set up for something here. The way Danny was mistreated by the Doctor. Clara's bonding with Danny. The future Pink time traveler. "The Caretaker" puts all the players in their place. The Doctor is now set up for regret. Clara is set for loss. And Danny?

I wonder if we should also read anything into the Doctor's remark to Courtney that there may be a vacancy [in the TARDIS] soon, "but not right now." Foreshadowing, or just a comment made as a result of the heated exchange a few moments earlier?

 

[Deckerd]

I was unaware that the previous Doctor and Clara were 'an item'.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Nonsexual. No bad-touching whatsoever. But the closeness that they had, relying on each other for emotional support... Boyfriend/girlfriends like how 14 year old virgins do it.

 

[Starkers]

There's also what Clara says when under the influence of the truth field on Trenzalore, and what 12 says at the end of Deep Breath.

"I'm not your boyfriend, Clara."

"I never said you were."

"I didn't say it was your mistake."

 

[Neroon]

It's interesting, for me, that the camera lingered on the first sentence from Pride and Prejudice. The sentence reads:

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.

The preoccupation with socially advantageous marriage in nineteenth-century English society manifests itself here, for in claiming that a single man “must be in want of a wife,” the narrator reveals that the reverse is also true: a single woman, whose socially prescribed options are quite limited, is in (perhaps desperate) want of a husband. (SparkNotes, http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/pride/quotes.html)

What does this quote and its meaning reveal about the characters in this episode?

Then you might enjoy this attachment

 

[.:: TSN ::.]

OT:
Just found out that DW will be taking a break for couple of weeks in Finland because BBC wants to subtitle episodes by themselves instead of letting finnish broadcaster translate them. And this will mean that they wont be getting episodes in time for normal schedule.
They used to air them on sundays, less than 24 hours after BBC airing.

For me it just means that I'll be acquiring my episodes from other sources..

But what would be BBC:s reasoning for this? Potential big twists that they want to keep inhouse and not let foreign broadcasters and their translators know them in advance? Or quality issues? Finnish subtitles are pretty well done, but maybe there are problems somewhere else.

And does anyone know of any other series that BBC wants to subtitle to other languages by themselves? Especially minor languages like finnish. From finnish broadcasters reply it seems that this isnt normal occurence.

 

[Photoman15]

Ask Marcelo Carmago why. He may have an answer.

 

[Sindatur]

OT:
Just found out that DW will be taking a break for couple of weeks in Finland because BBC wants to subtitle episodes by themselves instead of letting finnish broadcaster translate them. And this will mean that they wont be getting episodes in time for normal schedule.
They used to air them on sundays, less than 24 hours after BBC airing.

For me it just means that I'll be acquiring my episodes from other sources..

But what would be BBC:s reasoning for this? Potential big twists that they want to keep inhouse and not let foreign broadcasters and their translators know them in advance? Or quality issues? Finnish subtitles are pretty well done, but maybe there are problems somewhere else.

And does anyone know of any other series that BBC wants to subtitle to other languages by themselves? Especially minor languages like finnish. From finnish broadcasters reply it seems that this isnt normal occurence.

After having the first 5 Episodes' Work Prints (And First 8 scripts?) getting leaked, it wouldn't surprise me, if they are trying to be very careful to limit spoilers for the remainder of the Series

 

[USS KG5]

After having the first 5 Episodes' Work Prints (And First 8 scripts?) getting leaked, it wouldn't surprise me, if they are trying to be very careful to limit spoilers for the remainder of the Series

I think we have a winner.

 

[Timewalker]

I enjoyed it a lot, but some things bugged me.

Obviously, the utter lack of Ian Chesterfield is mind-boggling. And inexcusible - not even a cameo?

And Danny Pink's jump... what the heck? I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was unnecessarily stupid.

That said, I liked the character stuff, especially the quiet scenes with Capaldi and the Danny-Clara scene... its the first time that they kinda work as a couple.

Chesterton. Ian was never a piece of furniture. What they could have done was have him do an off-camera cameo - have Clara speak to him through an open door or around a corner and we could have heard the actor's voice.

As for Danny Pink's jump... I just speculated that he could have been a gymnast in his younger years.

Historically, older Doctors were paired with companions like Harry Sullivan because they would handle the physical action scenes as tactical execution to the Doctor's strategic ideas. It may be as simple as this Doctor just has a more exacerbated punk, anti establishment attitude where he's just "the disruptive influence" in his mind against any kind of restrictive entity.

Harry Sullivan was a doctor, not a soldier, even though he worked for UNIT. His role was written in before Tom Baker was cast, as the producers didn't know if they'd be casting someone who could handle physical action. Tom Baker could, so after that first season, Harry was written out.

Ian Marter, who played Harry, went on to novelize some of the Classic Doctor Who stories, and did a very good job. His adaptations were better than most, since he didn't stick only to the bare script.

Was it "otters" or "Autons"?

Otters. I can't imagine the Doctor willingly spending 10 seconds with the Autons for any reason, and certainly not because of a marital spat.

I thought it was average, but that opening bit of them chained up in the desert seemed tacked on from an entirely different episode, didn't get it at all.

That was intriguing, and if they never fill in the rest of that story, no doubt the fanfic writers will.

Honestly, why would William Russel be in a story like this? He's an 80 year old member of the schools board of directors. I still hope he turns up, but this didn't seem like the right story for it.

This would be exactly the right type of story for a cameo. In a fun moment, he could be at the parent conferences, making intros, or what not, and have a few fun lines with the Doctor.

The last thing I'd expect is for him to have a larger role in a more serious, action oriented story.

Missed opportunity.

Mr Awe

The thing is, though, Ian and Barbara were long-gone by the time the First Doctor regenerated into the Second Doctor. They were never told about regeneration, so Ian wouldn't have any clue at all as to who this current Doctor really was, although he would have plenty of questions if he'd seen the TARDIS and started wondering if that meant the Doctor (the William Hartnell Doctor he knew) was back. It would be a bit of a shock for him to discover that the Doctor had gone through so many different bodies and personalities, and that over 1500 years had gone by for the Doctor when it was only 50 years for Ian.

Oh, I agree. But I still would have enjoyed a direct reference to Ian or Barbara. Or even Susan. I'm not heartbroken they didn't do it, but it would have been nice.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It might have been more appropriate than the River reference, with hindsight.

Speaking of that I have a hard time imagining the Capaldi Doctor and River Song together.

I took it that he was referring to something that happened during his last incarnation.

I think the Doctor is always a little jealous when people come between him and his companion (except in the case of Rory...he was relieved). It's because he wants to be the center of attention.

The Doctor wasn't always jealous of his companions developing relationships with other people. In the Classic Doctor Who, and mentioned in the New Doctor Who, the Doctor doesn't like goodbyes. The first companion to leave, Susan, was given a sweet and loving speech in which he gave his blessing for her romance with David. The next two companions, Ian and Barbara, he had to be convinced by Vicki to let them go home. He was reluctant to see them leave.

The First Doctor was not immediately in favor of Susan's romance with David. At one point in the story, he was annoyed with her "David thinks this" and "David said that," and he was put out that she thought David's opinions were more important than his own. But by the end of the story he did finally realize that Susan was grown up and needed her own life with a man she loved. So he locked her out of the TARDIS to prevent her from giving up this chance (she would have gone with him because she thought her grandfather needed her), and made his farewell speech.

Too bad he didn't give her back her shoe, though.

I was thinking about the season-long arc that I have seen or known about for the NuWho. (I haven't watched all the episodes of the NuWho.)

In the Classic Who, there were three season long arcs.
* The Nerva Beacon arc of Season 12 (the Doctor and his companions visit the station, do a quick check on equipment on Earth, get waylaid by the Time Lords to deal with the Daleks, and return to an earlier time in the station's history to stop the Cybermen)
* The Keys of Time of Season 16
* The Trial of a Time Lord

Would the new generation of fans be interested in an arc that showed the Doctor traveling with his companions to a destination and along the way, having side adventures, or the Doctor traveling with his companions on a mission to recover clues or pieces of a long lost artifact?

Tom Baker's first season was an arc, as was The Key to Time. But those weren't the only Fourth Doctor arcs. There was the 3-story E-Space arc, and then the Return of the Master arc (Anthony Ainley was introduced as the Master in The Keeper of Traken, he and the Doctor fought in Logopolis and the Doctor had to regenerate, and the Master tried to finish the job of destroying the Doctor in Castrovalva - the Fifth Doctor's first story).

The Fifth Doctor era also had a story arc - Turlough and the Black Guardian - that ran from Mawdryn Undead until Enlightenment. This was a sequel to The Key to Time arc, because the Black Guardian was out for revenge for being outsmarted by the Fourth Doctor in The Armageddon Factor.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Tom Baker's first season was an arc, as was The Key to Time. But those weren't the only Fourth Doctor arcs. There was the 3-story E-Space arc, and then the Return of the Master arc (Anthony Ainley was introduced as the Master in The Keeper of Traken, he and the Doctor fought in Logopolis and the Doctor had to regenerate, and the Master tried to finish the job of destroying the Doctor in Castrovalva - the Fifth Doctor's first story).

The entire last season of the Fourth Doctor was an arc, about entropy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_arcs_in_Doctor_Who#Entropy

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Tom Baker's first season was an arc, as was The Key to Time. But those weren't the only Fourth Doctor arcs. There was the 3-story E-Space arc, and then the Return of the Master arc (Anthony Ainley was introduced as the Master in The Keeper of Traken, he and the Doctor fought in Logopolis and the Doctor had to regenerate, and the Master tried to finish the job of destroying the Doctor in Castrovalva - the Fifth Doctor's first story).

The entire last season of the Fourth Doctor was an arc, about entropy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_arcs_in_Doctor_Who#Entropy

The Key To Time was Baker's fifth season.