8X06 "The Caretaker" Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ I did say it was unintentional. A lot of people on tumblr and reddit were stating the same thing. I was trying to articulate a reason for why they may have thought that way. You can't effect how someone interprets a scene, show or movie. But you can create a logical explanation for those feelings said materials invoke.

Yeah, it's a statement on society, more than any intent of the show.

The Doctor (albeit a different one) never had such a problem with Mickey (outside of calling him an idiot).

To me, it's about Danny having been a soldier and the Doctor's jealousy, and he is acting like a jealous ex-boyfriend.

 

[Stevil2001]

The latest episodes are 45 minutes long, which means that there isn't the time to create a balance between the Doctor and the companion. The show has to go one way or the other.

I guess I disagree-- the show is still predominantly Doctor-focused, with Clara usually as the secondary character. She gets a lot of focus in "Deep Breath," but the Doctor's acceptance of Robin is the central conflict of "Robot of Sherwood," the Doctor is at the heart of the mystery in "Time Heist," "Into the Dalek" is predominantly about the Doctor's hatred, and "Listen" is all why the Doctor is the way he is. To do one more episode that focuses more on Clara and Danny seems okay; the show is still more about the Doctor than not, but for this 45 minutes it was about Clara (though the Doctor was still a lot of the focus of this episode). The episodes might "only" be 45 minutes, but there are thirteen of them!

I was more intrigued by the adventures hinted at in the beginning of this episode, than the actual adventure in the episode itself.

I bet you can cut anything down to two minutes and make it incredibly intriguing. The desert planet adventure, though, seemed to come from a very generic capture-and-escape Doctor Who story; that's why the brief glimpse of it works so well, as your mind fills in all the gaps because it's a story you've seen a million times.

How would I have written the episode? I would have it Doctor focused, with Clara and Danny as the companions on an adventure. The Doctor learns about the robot's mission and, with his companions, they confront the agency that sent the robot. During the adventure, the Doctor comes to respect and like Clara's boyfriend.

I'm not convinced that focusing on the robot would have made this, any more than focusing on the Krillitanes would have made "School Reunion" better.

I actually find that the show is picking up for me again after some slogging in the Smith era. With a plot arc that's only a light touch (as opposed to the overdone Clara arc), the characters being written as characters (and not mysteries), and some incredibly varied styles of story ("Time Heist" is nothing like "The Caretaker" is nothing like "Listen"), I find myself looking forward to Saturday more than I have since 2008.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

^ I did say it was unintentional. A lot of people on tumblr and reddit were stating the same thing. I was trying to articulate a reason for why they may have thought that way. You can't effect how someone interprets a scene, show or movie. But you can create a logical explanation for those feelings said materials invoke.

Yeah, it's a statement on society, more than any intent of the show.

The Doctor (albeit a different one) never had such a problem with Mickey (outside of calling him an idiot).

To me, it's about Danny having been a soldier and the Doctor's jealousy, and he is acting like a jealous ex-boyfriend.

Those are great points.

You know, I have never considered that the 12th Doctor may be attracted to Clara romantically. If he is, I could see why he sees Danny as a romantic rival and would purposefully go out of his way to be rude to him. Danny being the opposite of how the Doctor sees himself. When Danny and the Doctor have more in common than the Doctor is willing to admit.

 

[DarthPipes]

Or, if the Internet existed earlier, the JNT era which divided fans. Colin Baker, anyone?

I think the divide is now between those who want a companion-focused show or a Doctor-focused show. I am for the latter, for the show should be about him. I, also, liked that the people involved in the Classic Doctor Who put in unofficial guidelines about him - that we shouldn't learned much about his background (there should be a mystique about this alien), that he shouldn't "stoop" to our level, and that the companions are the conduit to the Doctor. (As some can tell, I am listening to the commentaries. Some of them are very informative. Others less so - hearing the actress playing Vicki saying that she doesn't remember much of her time on DW got old.)

When the show had serials that went for weeks, the most successful of them had struck the right amount of balance between the Doctor and the companions. (And, it was a plus when the writing and the directing was top-notch.)

The latest episodes are 45 minutes long, which means that there isn't the time to create a balance between the Doctor and the companion. The show has to go one way or the other.

I think the show is in a rut and that it's time for a major change from the top-down. The pattern was set in the 2005 season, when the companion became the focus of the franchise, there was a season-long arc, and the Doctor's existence was threatened. It's time to break the mold and do more experimentation. I think Doctor Who, as a space fantasy (Verity Lambert's words), is a flexible franchise where experimentation can occur. I was more intrigued by the adventures hinted at in the beginning of this episode, than the actual adventure in the episode itself.

The robots in the Classic Doctor Who were largely let down by a budget-tight BBC. Many drawings were marked with the words "omit" written on them because of the budget. If they had the budget of today, some of them might have been less rubbish. The robot in the current story failed because there were hints that this thing might have a fascinating story of its own to tell, but the writers choose not to tell it, resulting in a villian that was more MacGuffin.

How would I have written the episode? I would have it Doctor focused, with Clara and Danny as the companions on an adventure. The Doctor learns about the robot's mission and, with his companions, they confront the agency that sent the robot. During the adventure, the Doctor comes to respect and like Clara's boyfriend.

I would have dropped the balderdash about the Doctor being anti-soldier. Watching the older serials, I think he was more opposed to the mindset that prevented the military from seeing other options. The Doctor made friendships within UNIT, and developed friendships with other soldiers from other time periods.

I'd rather see a Doctor-based show. By the time Ian and Barbara left all the way back in Season 2, the producers realized that the Doctor was and should be the focal point of the show. Moffat thinks the companion should be and that Clara basically is the main character of the show, he was been commented as saying that very recently.

I look forward to when Moffat finally leaves Who. He's good at individual stories but when he tries to string together a storyline, the results are wildly inconsistent at best.

The conflict between the Doctor and Danny is completely contrived in order to drum up conflict. If you want to talk about contrived, you should also throw in those RIDICULOUS scenes of Clara (the part-time companion) rushing from the TARDIS to her dates with Danny. Why does she have to rush to go on a date with Danny when she hangs out in a TIME MACHINE? That means she can literally take a nap and then get ready on the TARDIS before the Doctor returns her to her own present moments after she originally left. There's no conflict here, she doesn't have to rush at all. That entire sequence was a waste of time.

 

[USS KG5]

^ I did say it was unintentional. A lot of people on tumblr and reddit were stating the same thing. I was trying to articulate a reason for why they may have thought that way. You can't effect how someone interprets a scene, show or movie. But you can create a logical explanation for those feelings said materials invoke.

Fair enough, I wasn't intending to criticise your personal interpretation as much as highlight how dangerous the reasoning you were discussing was in fuelling the fires, presumably as some people are trying ot do on Tumblr and reddit!

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ I did say it was unintentional. A lot of people on tumblr and reddit were stating the same thing. I was trying to articulate a reason for why they may have thought that way. You can't effect how someone interprets a scene, show or movie. But you can create a logical explanation for those feelings said materials invoke.

Yeah, it's a statement on society, more than any intent of the show.

The Doctor (albeit a different one) never had such a problem with Mickey (outside of calling him an idiot).

To me, it's about Danny having been a soldier and the Doctor's jealousy, and he is acting like a jealous ex-boyfriend.

Those are great points.

You know, I have never considered that the 12th Doctor may be attracted to Clara romantically. If he is, I could see why he sees Danny as a romantic rival and would purposefully go out of his way to be rude to him. Danny being the opposite of how the Doctor sees himself. When Danny and the Doctor have more in common than the Doctor is willing to admit.

In Deep Breath, the Doctor said "I'm not your boyfriend", Clara replied "I never said you were" and the Doctor said "I didn't say it was your mistake" (or similar). So it was (at least) something #11 was thinking.

I said somewhere else that the Doctor seems to have a self-hatred thing going on that might be connected to other things he might have done in the Time War, aside from the burning of Gallifrey which he now knows didn't happen.

The War Doctor might have done a lot of other bad things *as a soldier/warrior* that #12 is now feeling guilty for, and transferring that guilt onto Danny *another soldier*.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Any consideration or admission that the Doctor himself thought that he treated one of his comapnions like a girlfriend, would quickly be countered by any human being on the receiving end of that girlfriendship as they would describe theirself as being treated more like a "Pet" than "Girlfriend".

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I was thinking about the season-long arc that I have seen or known about for the NuWho. (I haven't watched all the episodes of the NuWho.)

In the Classic Who, there were three season long arcs.
* The Nerva Beacon arc of Season 12 (the Doctor and his companions visit the station, do a quick check on equipment on Earth, get waylaid by the Time Lords to deal with the Daleks, and return to an earlier time in the station's history to stop the Cybermen)
* The Keys of Time of Season 16
* The Trial of a Time Lord

Would the new generation of fans be interested in an arc that showed the Doctor traveling with his companions to a destination and along the way, having side adventures, or the Doctor traveling with his companions on a mission to recover clues or pieces of a long lost artifact?

P.S. I am amazed how quickly people are forgetting for a thousand years on a distant Earth colony that the Doctor literally confronted one enemy after another in an attempt to save that colony from annihilation. The deal with the War Doctor occurred before that, and everything that had been done on the original timeline, which existed for the Doctor up to the 50th anniversary special, was "erased" by the survival of Gallifrey. I remember seeing in "Waters of Mars" that the Doctor's perception of time changes when there is an alteration in time. He is aware of the change. I would think for the Doctor that the events of his time as a War Doctor would be a distant memory.

 

[PorthosShadow]

The hi-light for me regarding this episode is the confrontation between Danny & The Doctor. I think Danny really nailed who The Doctor is. He isn't a soldier, he is an officer who sends other people to die instead of pulling the trigger himself. In some sense that is worse than being the one who actually fires the weapon and really The Doctor is a deep bout of guilt and self loathing.

 

[Sindatur]

Lakenheath 72, I personally would love to see another Quest like the Key To Time, or even another for The Key To Time itself

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

I think it's with this episode that I realize this Doctor hardly ever uses his sonic screwdriver extended. Also, on the (much rarer) occasions he's used it so far this season it seems to be kept likewise. Eve Clara did her decoy thing with the sonic collapsed.

I'm guessing just HOW the Doctor uses his sonic is not specifically scripted and is more a flourish of the actor when needed; Smith used his screwdriver collapsed more frequently earlier on, but as time went on it was definitely more extended than collapsed. Thoughts?

[insert phallic joke here]

Mark

 

[Photoman15]

P.S. I am amazed how quickly people are forgetting for a thousand years on a distant Earth colony that the Doctor literally confronted one enemy after another in an attempt to save that colony from annihilation. The deal with the War Doctor occurred before that, and everything that had been done on the original timeline, which existed for the Doctor up to the 50th anniversary special, was "erased" by the survival of Gallifrey. I remember seeing in "Waters of Mars" that the Doctor's perception of time changes when there is an alteration in time. He is aware of the change. I would think for the Doctor that the events of his time as a War Doctor would be a distant memory.

He didn't spend the 800 years on Trenzalore fighting or holding back the enemies. They only started attacking at the end. He saved Christmas all those years by just being there, ready to answer the question (that the Timelords have been asking). That kept the enemy at bay for most all of the 800 years.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I was thinking about the season-long arc that I have seen or known about for the NuWho. (I haven't watched all the episodes of the NuWho.)

Clearly. Otherwise you'd recognize the obvious brilliance of stories like Human Natures/Family Of Blood, Midnight, Dalek, The Doctor's Wife and, of course, Blink.

In the Classic Who, there were three season long arcs.
* The Nerva Beacon arc of Season 12 (the Doctor and his companions visit the station, do a quick check on equipment on Earth, get waylaid by the Time Lords to deal with the Daleks, and return to an earlier time in the station's history to stop the Cybermen)
* The Keys of Time of Season 16
* The Trial of a Time Lord

And the Entropy arc in Season 18. While not originally intended as an arc, Logopolis ultimately culminates on the plot elements introduced in earlier stories of that season.

 

[Mr Light]

Oh man I would explode in total nerdgasm if they brought back the Key to Time

 

[Robert D. Robot]

OK. I didn't like the Doctor's attitude towards Danny. That was just unbelievable. It really detracted from the story. Also, didn't care for the domestic drama (i.e. soap opera) elements between Clara and Danny. That also detracted. I don't watch DW for that!

I agree. I really did not care for the way the Doctor was treating Danny, and I really did like it when Danny stood up to him and made a good point. I do not like it when anyone is disrespectful of another person, and the Doctor was going over the line in this episode. Some have offered that it may be lingering post-regeneration disorder AND it is also clear from the dialog that the Doctor is feeling protective (like a well-meaning friend or family member) of Clara, but he is just being repeatedly rude. I may be able to appreciate a Doctor with a 'cranky' personality, but when he keeps on and on and on with being unjustifiably demeaning to someone, this is WRONG. This behavior is not right. It is not pleasant to watch.

I also agree with the comment on the soap opera aspect. I know that we've had River & the Doctor and 'Rose Loves the Doctor and Loses Him' and other story lines, but Danny & Clara sitting on the couch talking about how they feel about everything plus all the tension and jealousy and drama between Clara & the Doctor... What is this- "As the Tardis Turns"?

This episode was mainly about 'drama', and not the good kind, but the kind of drama seen on all the reality shows that I do not watch. I do continue to like Capaldi's Doctor and enjoyed the humor, though.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

I had forgotten the three serial arc of the Black Guardian from the Fifth Doctor.

This is how the wikia for Doctor Who describes the events on Trenzalore:

For 900 years (PROSE: Tales of Trenzalore), it was the epicenter of a longstanding siege. Trenzalore was attacked relentlessly by many alien races who opposed the return of the Time Lords, while the Eleventh Doctor made his last stand against them all. (TV: The Time of the Doctor)

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Trenzalore

It was described as a siege in the episode, and the narrator said the Doctor seemed to forget his past lives.

For myself, I would find it believable that the Doctor, as a living being, suffered from PTSD. He has been forcibly imprisoned and/or tortured, and has killed many lives and has watched his companions die.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I also agree with the comment on the soap opera aspect. I know that we've had River & the Doctor and 'Rose Loves the Doctor and Loses Him' and other story lines, but Danny & Clara sitting on the couch talking about how they feel about everything plus all the tension and jealousy and drama between Clara & the Doctor... What is this- "As the Tardis Turns"?

No, it's not. For some reason, genre fans seem to think that every time a character talks about his feelings instead of talking about robots and dragons and death rays, it automatically tumbles into the sick and icky world of "soap operas". Nothing could be more wrong.

Characters talking about their feelings is something you're likely to encounter in every genre and in every series, from Shakespeare to Breaking Bad and from Star Trek to Harry Potter. It's also quite frequent in real life. In fact, the only genre where those types of scenes are not likely to be encountered is children's television.

Soap operas, on the other hand, are a popular form of serialized melodrama, featuring heavily stereotyped characters and stock plots because they're mass produced and done on the cheap.

If comparing current Doctor Who episodes with soap operas is your way of saying that you don't find these scenes convincing, I think you'd better address specifically what it is about those scenes that you think doesn't work instead of resorting to what is ultimately a meaningless blanket statement.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ No, that's not it at all. It's great when characters have relationships, etc, but for me at least, DW is escapism fun and I don't watch it to see the character's dwell on relationship problems. YMMV.

Mr Awe

 

[Psion]

We're being set up for something here. The way Danny was mistreated by the Doctor. Clara's bonding with Danny. The future Pink time traveler. "The Caretaker" puts all the players in their place. The Doctor is now set up for regret. Clara is set for loss. And Danny?

Well, I'm sure he'll be just fine.

 

[Professor Zoom]

^ No, that's not it at all. It's great when characters have relationships, etc, but for me at least, DW is escapism fun and I don't watch it to see the character's dwell on relationship problems. YMMV.

Mr Awe

There's plenty of escapism in Doctor Who. And personally, understanding their relationship problems, sets up the stakes, sets up believable stakes for the characters.

Danny is warning Clara at the end. She's going to have to choose between the Doctor and him... and I think Danny is right. You stay with the Doctor to long and... Davros was right, at least in the modern series, The Doctor turns his companions into weapons.

The crux of the problem between Clara and Danny IS the Doctor. She's been lying to Danny. She's been putting herself in danger. Danny is far more equipped to handle the things that Clara is doing.