Zefram Cochrane

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Disco, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hmh? This happens in "The Naked Time". And it happens like this:

    The "intriguing prospects" don't seem to inspire Kirk much, either into awe or into action...

    Basically, our heroes aren't the sort to be awed much. An invisible ship? Ho-hum. Gods left and right? Tiresome. Omnipotence for sale? Let's skip that one. Creation explained? Can we move on now?

    OTOH, they don't read memos much, either. Every time a natural phenomenon goes to warp, it's "impossible" and "unprecedented". Every time.

    If anything, ENT dutifully remains consistent with the rest of Star Trek there...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  2. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Some what.
    More like something to explore another day
    Though they seem to have forgotten about it the next time:
    In their next encounter their reactions are a bit ambiguous:
    And by the next use of the Sling Shot (Assignment Earth) it was another day at the office.
    Well the guys doing it (Daniels and such) do know all about it. If IIRC, the NX01 crew were a bit amazed and skeptical at first. T'Pol especially.
    Handled within the constraints of continuity and in keeping with what we know of them. Neither species first appearance was a "first encounter".. The Ferengi were retconned by the Battle and Little Green Men ( if you count time travel). The Borg were retconned by First Contact (if you count time travel) and Scorpion. Generations also tosses a monkey wrench into things as the El Aurians were presumably fleeing the Borg when picked up by the Enterprise-B.
     
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  3. UnknownSample

    UnknownSample Commodore Commodore

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    One, not both, did say that.
     
  4. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ They did not.
     
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  5. Poltargyst

    Poltargyst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Given that Archer and crew learned all about time travel due to the Temporal Cold War, it seems that Kirk's crew should know all about it too prior to Naked Time. Again, unless I'm to take it that ENT is a different continuity.
     
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  6. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Archer seemed inclined to forget that it ever happened. I doubt he made much mention of it in his logs. So I don't see any discontinuity here.
     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    They knew all about time travel in "The Naked Time" and forgot about it by "Tomorrow Is Yesterday". Starfleet keeps lousy records, I guess.

    But seriously, where does anyone in TOS state that time travel is unknown or unheard of? The slingshot is a method of time travel that works using 23rd Century technology. Did the NX-01 ever time travel without the aid of technology from the future? If not, what's your point?
     
  8. Poltargyst

    Poltargyst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Archer didn't mention the Temporal Cold War in his logs?
     
  9. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I admit, we don't know if he did or not. But Archer was pissed enough at Daniels for continually dragging him into it that I suspect he just washed his hands of the whole thing.

    Especially since Daniels was so far in the future that Archer couldn't possibly have had much to mention in the first place. All Archer knew was, Daniels could transport him through time with a thought. That's not the kind of thing you can keep detailed documentation about. Somebody that powerful, probably best to let it go and forget all about it.
     
  10. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    I'm sure he did. What does that have to do with being able to travel in time? I don't think his logs included a diagram of a time machine
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  11. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    I'm not one to jump to ENT's defense, but,
    A) Something like the TCW was likely classified;
    B) The "Naked Time" moment was about humanity learning how to time travel under their own steam for the first time. It's one thing to know that people from the future know how to do it; quite another to learn how to do it yourself.
     
  12. Drone

    Drone Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^ I think I like that portrayal of the perception of events quite a bit. As for the OP, honestly I found the portrayal of Cochrane in TOS to be vapid, unengaging, and bereft of any opinions that were noteworthy other than what was originally proffered. How to reconcile this person with his presentation in First Contact? Well, while it seems somewhat tenuous, I would agree that there is no way to know the parameters or limitations of the Companion's reboot on him. How can we categorically say that a physical regeneration would be the extent of the changes that would be wrought? It's interesting in a sense to see it as a possible analogue to the Talosians work on Vina. Apparently, she retained the consciousness, sensibilities, and memories of her life before the crash. But with no template, the physical reconstruction was less than apt. In the same fashion, with no model to draw from, the Companion simply found it easier to restore the appropriate physical construct, but either by mistake or happenstance, personality changes of a very substantial basis took place.

    At the same time. I don't dismiss FC Cochrane as a sot who literally stumbled into his place in history. Regardless of the brilliance or genuinely serious mien of someone, a trauma that occurs so recently in their past (though I don't think we know his own personal toll that the war exacted), can easily lead them into behavior that on the surface suggests an impudence, lack of responsibility, or concern about matters of potentially global concern. But, in fact, the aforementioned faculties and gifts very well may still be present, but require some perceptive excavation to expose. That was my impression of Cromwell's portrayal, tinted perhaps by the admission that I've always found him to be a superlative actor and powerful presence.
     
  13. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Another thing was that McCoy and Kirk seemed to recognize Cochrane from his pictures I guess! Considering Cochrane was played by two different actors, totally different looking actors as well! So is First Contact an alternate reality as well?
    JB
     
  14. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As I recall, they didn't realize who Cochrane was until they asked his first name. Not surprising that they didn't recognize him, as he'd been de-aged by the Companion, and might've even appeared younger than he was when he discovered the space warp.
     
  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    Yep, it was his full name, not his face they recognized. Though I think they did think he looked familiar.
     
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  16. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Daniels and his coworkers could have done some adjustment of Archer's logs. Or maybe Section 31 did it?
     
  17. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I think you're right. If Cochrane's age was 15-20 years off from how they'd seen him in the history books, that might be enough to throw them.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or if Cochrane had been redone by the Companion in the image of his self-image, rather than his history book portrait... Or any of the other explanations bandied about.

    The real issue is with our heroes being "de-thrown" after they learn that this indeed is Cochrane. Do they go "Oh, I should have remembered - that's exactly what he looked like in his youth, in that other photo I have seen but couldn't recall at first" or "Heck, he looks completely different - umm, perhaps this is how he looked in his youth, of which I know nothing at all"? Are records of public figures from the 21st (and 22nd!) century "fragmentary", like interplanetary shipping records from the 1990s? Is cosmetic surgery so commonplace that faces mean little? Or did it used to be?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    I've a feeling a lot Captain's Logs are redacted by Section 31, Starfleet Intelligence or the Federation. Things like Time portals, Androids and Greco-Roman Gods. Then you have things Captain's themselves redact. Kirk seems to have redacted things like Cochrane and Khan's locations and Gary Mitchell's "ascension". I think Starfleet would have put up a warning buoy around the Ceti Alpha if they wanted to keep people out and prevent ships like the Reliant from stumbling on Khan.
     
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  20. Disco

    Disco Commodore Commodore

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    Can you evidence this?

    Plus unless it's been stated on screen then it wouldn't be confirmed because it won't be canon?