Zefram Cochrane

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Disco, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If they could work out the licencing, I personally would love it if Mars in the Star Trek universe was Barsoom. With essentually the history and culture ERB wrote of.
     
  2. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How do you know that Alpha Centauri only had a population in the thousands? Hell, it could have grown in population until it was comparable with any of the other founding worlds. For that matter, it could have been settled by Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, AND Tellarites (maybe it was divided up into four parts like Vienna after WWII). We've got very little information to go on.
     
  3. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Okay, let's do some math. Terra Nova was the first extra-solar colony sent out in 2069, so we know that alpha centauri was subseqent to that. The AC colony is no older than 95 years. The SS Conestoga carried about 200 people, and that ship was used one way and disassembled for building materais upon arrivial, and was said to have been low warp.

    I figure "thousands" based on ships numbering in the dozens and not hundreds, four or five generations tops, and a reasonable number of children per generation.

    A population increase into the billions in less than a century? No. There no way they could have produced/imported that kind of support inferstructure in less than a century.

    In the 2160's the Andorians and the Tellarites were new to Humans.

    Now if AC had a indiguious civilization, comparible to the other federation founders, then a population in the billions would be possible, a indigious population plus a few thousand Humans.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
  4. Kahless the Unforgettable

    Kahless the Unforgettable Captain Captain

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    Because, again, that's more of a title than introducing someone to someone else.

    That's not true at all. They've used that style on several occasions, particularly in reference to Vulcans and Sarek especially (but I do recall it being used occasionally with other species, too). Here's an example just after a quick Google search, from the episode "The Ultimate Computer:"
    Captain James T. Kirk: But a genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. Did Einstein, Kazanga, or... or Sitar of Vulcan produce new and revolutionary theories on a regular schedule?

    Here's another from TNG's "Sarek:"
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Sarek of Vulcan would never be afraid of looking straight at something he did not want to see.
    Ambassador Sarek: I warn you! Your efforts to discredit me will not succeed!
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Sarek of Vulcan never confused what he wanted with the truth.


    And another from Journey to Babel:
    Gav: (a stout chap with a porcine nose) Sarek of Vulcan, do you vote to admit Coridan to the Federation?

    And another from TNG's Unification:
    Pardek: Ambassador Spock, of Vulcan.

    Yet another from TAS's Yesteryear:
    Sarek:[/b] You saved my son's life, Selek. There is no way I can fully repay you for that.
    Mr. Spock: [as Selek] Try to understand your son, Sarek of Vulcan. It will be repayment enough for me.
    Sarek: A strange request, but I will honor it.


    In fact, the only time I can recall (and backed up with another quick search) of that style being used as a title for someone from another homeworld, is from DS9 where we occasionally get "The Sisko is of Bajor." But even that doesn't really follow the style.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Intriguingly, Terra Nova was essentially said to be the only Earth-like rock within 20 lightyears that could have been colonized. Alpha Centauri is of course within 20 ly, so the implication is that it's not Class M. A population explosion on a Class M planet, producing millions of settlers within a couple of generations, would appear inevitable - difficult to prevent rather than difficult to organize. There'd be food and space for everybody, and enough transportation capacity to go around that medicines against the usual life-shortening problems could be delivered, there being no need to deliver anything else. A population explosion on a planet inhabited by the means of pressurized domes would be rather unlikely in comparison!

    Quite so, assuming AC is hostile to human life and the locals are a rather alien lifeform (Cochrane could never be one, say).

    Or then a native population of billions, plus millions of Earthlings who indeed would have found a Class M environment there (it just didn't count in 2069 because the locals already had dibs), moved in, and eventually exceeded their mandate to dwell.

    I just don't get it. How do you say it differently so that it becomes (ceases to be) one thing or the other? What is the relevant word combination, the relevant inflection, the relevant nudge or wink?

    There's no context around "ZC of AC". There's just "ZC of AC". So something else than context must be separating it from "Lawrence of Arabia" in your mind. What is it?

    Not for introducing Sarek of Vulcan, though. It's a somewhat redundant description applied later on in the game. One wonders if there's a danger of confusion there, with Sarek of Sweden, say.

    So where was Kazanga from?

    It seems only Vulcans are subject to this treatment...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Kahless the Unforgettable

    Kahless the Unforgettable Captain Captain

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    Considering you address it in your next quote below, you seem to be purposefully obtuse here. It's called "context." Kirk was clearly introducing Cochrane and identifying what world he was from. Hell, for all we know there were other famous Zephram Cochranes. Not that it matters, because the context was pretty clear. Aside from people purposely trying to ignore that so that their weak rationalization for the conflict of information makes sense in their heads, of course.

    Because "Lawrence of Arabia" is not a common parlance, and it wasn't being used in the same context at all. Like, not even a little. Especially since he's never labeled that way, like ever again. Unlike, you know, Lawrence of Arabia who's almost always addressed like that when he comes up. Kind of like in this thread...

    Now if Kirk had introduced him as "Zephram of Alpha-Centauri" at first, then changed it so he used "Zephram Cochrane" (ie, his actual name rather than a historical title) you'd have an argument. But that's not the case. At all.

    Now your argument is that it's "redundant" to describe what world some prominent aliens are from? Really? That's what you're going with here? That they don't use it for every single person in the universe?

    Let me guess, you assume that when they talk about, I dunno, a Talaxian Water Buffalo, that's not a water buffalo-like creature from Talaxia, but a type of Terran water buffalo named in honor of it? Or just out of a random coincidence. Since, you know that's sometimes done in the real world, but hardly -- if ever -- in sci-fi in general or Trek in particular.

    I dunno, where is Bronq, Stendoric, or Xalamaroo from? What exactly is your point here?

    Again, no, it's not limited to Vulcans. There's just plenty examples of it being used with Vulcans on the show. As opposed to it never being used in a Lawrence of Arabia sort of way as far as I can recall. Like, ever. The closest example I could come up with to Lawrence of Arabia (notice how the full title keeps being used for him, as opposed to Zephram Cochrane?) was "The Sisko is of Bajor," and that was the Prophets telling him that's where he's bound to, not so much a title or name for him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
  7. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or was perfectly class M, but the locals didn't immediately open it to immigration from Earth. After some haggling over terms, a Human colony was permitted, and colonists began to arrive.

    Would depend on how many people were in the first generation.
     
  8. UnknownSample

    UnknownSample Commodore Commodore

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    I'm surprised that there apparently is all this information about Trek's version of Alpha Centauri. Does it all come from Enterprise? That would explain why I'm unfamiliar with it.