Your Country's History

[Zulu Romeo]

I consider myself associated at least in part with four countries: the country of my ancestors and heritage, the country of my parents and their experiences, the country of my birth and nationality, and the country of my own nurturing and character development. I don't really feel I belong to any one of these countries, particularly as one of those countries had major influences (for good and for bad) in the history of two of the other countries, so I can't really say I feel a strong attachment for the atrocities or otherwise of those countries' past.

Regarding the countries of my birth and my upbringing (England and Scotland respectively), which have had a long history against each other, there is this conflict of loyalties and of identity, yet also because of my family's past and own heritage, I am somewhat an outsider in these affairs in general, and I end up falling between several stools, or feeling awkward when it comes to trying to adopt the cultures of either e.g. wearing a kilt.

 

[Sky]

Interesting question.

I'm originally from Finland. If I still lived in my home country, I'd be watching solemn documentaries of an old war right about now.. since today marks the 70th anniversary of the beginning of the Winter War.

I have to say my country's history does affect me. I've heard my grandparents' war stories, I knew my great-grandpa who was on the "wrong" side of the civil war, and naturally the stories and experiences of these loved ones have had an effect on me. I am not nationalistic or especially patriotic, though.

(In my country, "the jury's still out" on many aspects of our history. The civil war, although it happened 90 years ago, is still a sore spot for many. The continuation war and our siding with Germany in the 1940's will raise a huge debate whenever discussed. My family history's a pretty even mix of all kinds of backgrounds; whites and reds, landowners and factory workers, communists and priests. It's complicated, and I am happy that I live in a time when I don't really have to choose my loyalties.)

 

[Count Zero]

Well, I'm not very coherent today, but I'll try to write down some thoughts.
I have a sort of hate-love-relation to my country and my nationality. I guess that's normal, and I'm in good company (Nietzsche, Goethe). I don't feel proud of my nation because I haven't done anything to contribute to its achievements. On a similar note, I don't feel ashamed or responsible for the bad things that happened in the past, either.
But my country's history is often on my mind and it does affect me. Granted, history always affects one in some way. After all, it has shaped the geopolitical landscape. In this case, however, it's a bit more than that.
We were responsible for the greatest crime in history and therefore, I feel we have a special responsibility to keep the memory alive. I think the Holocaust has influenced the way I see people and history and my country greatly. To know what perfectly normal people are capable of has resulted in a sort of critical, distant view towards humanity and things like patriotism, but also to the resolution that we must fight wrongs rigourously and before they become unstoppable.

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

It bothers me that the dark side of my country's history is usually not taught. The US has a very bloody and racist history and it just isn't taught very often that i think that that's really sad.

 

[Jeri]

I'm from Germany...

My husband and I met as exchange students at a German university 20 years ago, and I remember one of my instructors explaining that Germany had a bit of an "identity problem," and it sounds like that is still true to some extent.

The word, "schuld" comes up a lot in German literature. Maybe the guilt you feel is born of something good -- a strong sense of personal responsibility that is cultivated in Germanic culture.

From whatever source, be it the harsh climatic conditions that required people pull together to survive, a sense of personal responsibility seems to be there from what I've seen, for better or worse.

 

[captcalhoun]

i'm English and i feel proud of what we've given the world mostly. like democracy, education and freedom.

even if we were assholes to half of Africa and parts of Asia, the Caribbean and so forth.

i'd rather live here than anywhere else.

people say we're part of the American Empire. if that's true, there's worse places to be.

 

[Me-Ike]

I'm originally from Finland. If I still lived in my home country, I'd be watching solemn documentaries of an old war right about now.. since today marks the 70th anniversary of the beginning of the Winter War.

I have to say my country's history does affect me. I've heard my grandparents' war stories, I knew my great-grandpa who was on the "wrong" side of the civil war, and naturally the stories and experiences of these loved ones have had an effect on me. I am not nationalistic or especially patriotic, though.

I must admit to having been ignorant about the Winter War. So thanks for bringing that up, now I even learned a little.

And I think that even though very many people were "on the wrong side", it's often overlooked that they were often young and naive, forced into service, or simply believed to be doing good. Not all of them, mind you, but I'd hate to think of all the Finnish and German men who gave their lives as The Villains.

Count Zero, if you don't mind me asking, what do you mainly think of/feel when watching, say, a documentary about the holocaust? I mean, I know that you aren't all fluffy inside and think of butterflies, but do you also experience something akin to guilt? Or something else?

From whatever source, be it the harsh climatic conditions that required people pull together to survive, a sense of personal responsibility seems to be there from what I've seen, for better or worse.

This feeling of responsibility is one of the very few good things I take out of this. Pupils are kind of forced to evaluate their stance towards their country. Well, if they do think, that is.

 

[Count Zero]

I must admit to having been ignorant about the Winter War. So thanks for bringing that up, now I even learned a little.

And I think that even though very many people were "on the wrong side", it's often overlooked that they were often young and naive, forced into service, or simply believed to be doing good. Not all of them, mind you, but I'd hate to think of all the Finnish and German men who gave their lives as The Villains.

Especially with the Finnish who basically thought they'd fight the Russians. My uncle fell in WWII at the age of 18. I don't think he was a villain.

Count Zero, if you don't mind me asking, what do you mainly think of/feel when watching, say, a documentary about the holocaust? I mean, I know that you aren't all fluffy inside and think of butterflies, but do you also experience something akin to guilt? Or something else?

I don't feel guilt. It's a mixture of incredulity, sadness and responsibility.

This feeling of responsibility is one of the very few good things I take out of this. Pupils are kind of forced to evaluate their stance towards their country. Well, if they do think, that is.

Yes, I like that, too.

 

[Spot's Meow]

Hmmm, this is hard for me to answer for some reason. I studied US History in college and am now doing so in my Master's program...I feel like I have been so closely tied to the subject for several years now that I think of it more impartially, less emotionally. It's just...there, and I want to understand it. I always try to put myself in the shoes of the past human beings and not project the present onto them. I want to think about what their true intentions were, what they were probably thinking, whether they knew what they are getting themselves into. It's not good to demonize people in the past because we often (VERY often) make the same mistakes now that they did back then...I don't really feel like much has changed or much progress has been made on "improving humanity" in that sense.

I must say though, that I would probably feel differently if I lived in a different area of the country. Living in the west, our history comes into the picture fairly late and is really only looked at in terms of "manifest destiny" or the Gold Rush. So when I read about slavery in the south, the civil war, industrialization of the north, etc. I don't feel like I am reading my country's history, I feel like I am reading another country's history. I feel much more connected to California's history than the country's as a whole. I feel more connected to the Gold Rush, to the Big Four, to the conservation of Yosemite, to the creation of the beach and car cultures, and yes, even to the negative things like the internment of the Japanese. I would say I even feel more connected to the Spanish missions and the californios than I do to anything that went on in the North or South of the country.

I do feel saddened by the negative things, but I feel that there have been a lot of positive things as well. I wouldn't necessarily say I feel proud of them, since I didn't personally accomplish them, but I do feel grateful for them. And all I can really do is try to understand what happened and why.

 

[Emher]

Eh, doesn't really affect me.

We conquered most of norther Europe during the 1600s, making the Baltic sea an inner sea, and then we had a decent wave of ownage until a stupid king thought it a good idea to fight Russia in winter (you just don't do that) at the beginning of the 1800s, and he ended up being shot in the head with a button (no I'm not making that up) at the Norwegian border by either enemy or friend. After that we've been pretty much pussies and even helped the Nazis in WWII. And now the government this it's a good idea to try and lock up about a third of the population.


Once we where Vikings and pillaged and killed and stuff. Now we're nose deep in unrealistic law books. How the fuck did that happen?


I've been accused of being a secret American. It's not too far of the mark actually.

 

[Count Zero]

And now the government this it's a good idea to try and lock up about a third of the population.

Huh? What?

 

[Traveller]

I'm from Germany.

*groan* I knew that just from reading the question.

I'm from Germany, too, and no, I don't feel ashamed. I only feel responsible for my own actions, not for things that happened before even my parents were born.

ETA: I guess my reaction stems from being force-fed too many documentaries about WWII and the holocaust in my teens. That doesn't meen I don't feel horrified about what happened, but even then I couldn't see why I personally should feel ashamed. Guilty by association? Crap. And the insistence of the 68'ers that we were somehow carrying the original sin (as if every German was born with the Nazi gene) just made me furious.

So whenever that question comes up I feel like

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I'm Italian, and I can definitively say that it affects me very much.

The good, the bad, the wonderful, the dreadful. I feel ashamed thinking about some things my people did in the past, and elated thinking about the common heritage I share. I'm not nationalist, far from it, and I feel no sense of pride or superiority about my country: what I feel for my country is not different from what I feel for my family: I can grow to hate them, but I just can't stop loving them.

Actually, I think you have alot to be proud of. For a relatively small country, Italy has given more than it's fair share of culture and beauty to the world - fabulous art, opera, excellent food, excellent wine...and that's not even counting the fact that it amassed the largest empire the western world has ever known, and has contributed greatly to the largest Christian church in the world.

Gotta give Italy props, that's for sure!

Plus...you have REALLY hot men!

Yeah...I've been to about 40+ countries...and Italy is by far my favorite. You have an awesome country.

But I digress......

Anyhoo, I'm an American, and I am generally proud of my country. I was very proud of it until 2001....but let's just say that the leadership provided by the Presidential administration from 2000 to 2008 has made me very ashamed of some of our recent 'activities'. Activities that every American is partly responsible for - because we could have stopped it, but didn't.

Obviously, we have some other things in our past that were pretty unsavory as well (slavery, for one.....the atrocities that were committed during the Vietnam war, for another).

But overall, for such a young country, we have done pretty well for ourselves, and for the most part have tried to contribute something of value to the rest of the world - especially through our involvement in both World Wars. I am very proud of us for that!

I'm a big fan of Cohan's "Over There". Every time I hear that song, it makes me proud of my country and my grandparents' generation in particular. That generation had some frakkin' guts!

 

[Count Zero]

So whenever that question comes up I feel like

Well, that can't be healthy. We won't get rid of the Nazi connection any time soon, if ever.

 

[Kirkman1987]

I'm American.

I'm Proud to a point. I like America a lot. I like the culture and most of the people. I'm even a few years into my service with the Army Reserve.

I don't feel too bad about past mistakes , that I wasn't involved in, but it pains me to see things happening in the present that I find disagreeable. I found the War in Iraq highly distasteful, and it shames me as an American and Soldier to take part.

I guess I have to be personally involved to feel strongly one way or another. the past stuff affects me, but to a lesser degree.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

No I don't feel any strong identity with my countries history although being a somewhat psychologically isolated person there is a lot outside of me that doesn't effect me personally. I probably am more effected by the culture of my Sicilian heritage since that played a big role in shaping the town I grew up in. I agree with most that I cannot feel proud to be an American or any of its accomplishments, because it was an accident of birth that I am here. I suppose I am grateful that I am here and not in many other countries where the standard of living is much harsher. When it comes to America I am not much of a flag-waver, but I am not much of a flag-burner either.

I think in the West as we move further and further into a modern age we tend to look at history as much more distant to us. They take on the character of simply stories in a book rather than events that might have shaped us. Even fairly recent events. World War 2 and the Japanese as mortal enemies was only 65 years ago and my own parents remember knowing Japanese who were forced to relocate during that time. Yet to me my associations with Japan are personal things. My brother-in-law is half Japanese; my college roommate majored in Japanese and I knew a lot of exchange students; I am a fan of their sports martial arts scene. There is now a huge cultural exchange between America and Japan and if someone were to bring up the idea that we should not be friendly towards the Japanese because of the past they would be laughed at. It is the same in Europe especially now with the existence of the EU.

 

[Me-Ike]

Once we where Vikings and pillaged and killed and stuff. Now we're nose deep in unrealistic law books. How the fuck did that happen?

So, you'd rather that the pillaging and killing was still going on?

And what's that about locking people up?

I don't feel guilt. It's a mixture of incredulity, sadness and responsibility.

That's pretty much what my one of my friends says she feels.
Hm, I do think guilt is a little over the top, but it's just ... there.

So whenever that question comes up I feel like

Dude, relax.

I was actually trying to not make this about Germany, hence my keeping my thoughts back in the OP. But the question came up and I wasn't going to ignore it. I just wanted to hear people's stances from different countries.

That said, I am still reading all the comments and enjoying them!

 

[Traveller]

So whenever that question comes up I feel like

Dude, relax.

I can't help it. The question riles me. It always has this ring of "do you feel guilty already? You should, y'know."

I was actually trying to not make this about Germany,

Yeah. You know this is The German Question. No other could have asked it.

 

[Me-Ike]

I can't help it. The question riles me. It always has this ring of "do you feel guilty already? You should, y'know."

I am not saying this at all. And actually, I have never encountered anyone who says that we should feel guilty. We have a knack for it, surely, but the thing that I take from it is that responsibility is advocated, not guilt.

Yeah. You know this is The German Question. No other could have asked it.

Yeah well, so what? Due to our history we (me obviously included) tend to think about this with every upcoming generation. This also means that these questions get repeated a lot. That's not a bad thing. If you think you've found your balance on that, good for you. Still, let others think it through.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

The thing for me is that whenever I watch a movie/documentry/see pictures dealing with the atrocities committed by Germany during WWII, I not only feel shame but also guilt. You know, during the day I don't feel personally responsible. I'd say I'm pretty close to what iguana tonante said: a love-hate relationship. Appreciating the good, being aware of the bad. Not too keen on defining myself over where I happened to be born.
But whenever I see the things that have been done I cannot help but to strongly feel the need of personally apologizing.

Now, I know that I'm not personally responsible and I'm not looking for "Oh, but it wasn't you"s. But these thoughts also always make me wonder whether people have a similar strong feelings.

As someone who comes from a Jewish family, I want to comment that I REALLY appreciate this post.

And state my belief that it is people like you who will make sure it never happens again.

Those Germans who were alive at the time, but claimed that 'they had no idea' what was going on make me furious....and I don't believe it for a second. I mean, it seems to me it would have been pretty hard to miss the rounding up of people....the cattle cars to the camps...and the smell from the crematories. Not to mention the young men of the SS who had to have come home to their families with their stories.

The people of that generation SHOULD feel shame. And the fact that many of them don't - they brush it off with a 'we didn't know' cover story, saddens me greatly. It's like adding insult to injury, you know?

And it doesn't matter that other countries had committed genocide before. That doesn't make it acceptable. The 1940's Germans didn't have any ability to change those other countries courses. But they did have the ability to change their own course. And yes - I DO hold them responsible - they had the ability to make a change....but let it all happen.

Now...I'm not saying you should feel guilty. I know that YOU didn't do it. But I am glad that there are sensitive people in Germany, who do not dismiss what happened out of hand, simply because they were not alive. After all, if we are not willing to acknowledge and learn from our mistakes of the past...we ARE destined to repeat them. And it is only the people like you - people who will remain vigilant to make sure Germany doesn't do what they did again - that the rest of us count on.

And that goes for everyone - not just Germany. It goes for the U.S. too, in regards to the atrocities committed in Vietnam...and even during this little 'war on terror' we've got goin' on. We're guilty too! No country is perfect...but I don't think any of us should just wash our hands of our history either.

We should learn from our ancestor's mistakes...and take inspiration from their accomplishments. Because it is through that process that in the current day we can achieve greatness...yet never lose our humility.