Your Country's History

[Thor Damar]

^^ Quite possibly a Republic in name only. The English Republic went though several stages. The first was the Commonwealth which was seen by many as merely a temporary form of government until the actual Republic could be established. The Rump Parliament was made up of the MP's whom had supported the Parliamentarian side in the Civil War. It was significantly weaker due to the Self Denying Ordinance which forbade commanders in the New Model Army from standing in parliament.

Unfortunately due to the Rump Parliament's ineffectual nature the Republic became a Protectorate led by Oliver Cromwell. Mostly based upon the power of the Army, this was basically a military dictatorship which fought several major wars in order to unite the Isles. Since Cromwell dissolved several Parliaments, crushed the Levellers (the most democratic revolutionaries in Europe at that time) and made his son the succeeding Lord Protector, we can safety assume that this was not a true Republic.

Indeed this period is regarded as the Interregnum between the various Monarchies that have unfortunately (In my opinion) infested our history so to most British people the Republic was an historical embarrassment.

Not to me though. I think that it was a real shame that the Republic did not succeed and create a different Britain. Alas it was not to be.

(nice history lesson NG)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

My bad...wrong term, with "helots" (at least I didn't say "plebeians," which would've been a lot worse. ) However, I do believe Athens still had a significant non-citizen portion of the population.

So, I think it is right to say I am very proud of the innovations we made. We've strayed, sometimes badly, but that will never stop me from being proud of what we founded here. If anything, it makes me more driven to fix it.

And one thing I think people these days must be very careful not to forget--just because someone holds a different viewpoint does NOT mean they don't see or care about the problems. I see all of the same problems RandyS does, but I have a different idea of how to fix them...and let's just say that a lot of the solution to my mind does NOT involve the government for the most part (I do not exclude it entirely, as I do see a regulatory role to check abuses) because if they're good for one thing, it's screwing things up. Each new bureaucracy is another frak-up opportunity, in my book. What's needed, in my opinion, is a social revolution, not a governmental one--voluntary re-prioritization, not forced by the government. For example...if I came into sufficient means to do something major, I would not want the government to tax me excessively. That said, I would also choose to live well below my means.

To my mind, anything not needed to care for myself (in modest fashion), my parents when they reach old age, and children should I have any, is something I believe I am called to give for the sake of others. Why? First, for me I believe this is a religious calling: resources should be used faithfully, not in a wasteful or hoarding manner. But on the practical side, it's also because I believe that in my community, I could allocate donated resources, gauge their effectiveness in order to better serve, and do all of this with much less waste than the bureaucracy could.

That said, getting this to happen on a grand scale is way, WAY harder to achieve than just passing a new law (just look at how easily bad law gets through Congress and how hard it is for good law to pass!): this asks for a dramatic, grassroots cultural shift. I recognize that. However, if achieved, I believe it would be a far better solution than a government one because if there is one thing the government always WILL do, that is flush money and resources down the toilet.

 

[Count Zero]

My bad...wrong term, with "helots" (at least I didn't say "plebeians," which would've been a lot worse. ) However, I do believe Athens still had a significant non-citizen portion of the population.

Yes, that's true. But not all of them were slaves. Athens prided itself on attracting people from all over (craftsmen/artists, merchants, philosophers, students of said philosophers).

 

[Kegg]

That's weird. I would have expected the Irish to be much more patriotic because they regained their national sovereignty so late and nations who do that tend to overcompensate a little, like Poland or the Baltic states.

We did for a time. But then we got rich as sin and drowned in being one of the more affluent nations in Europe, which was fun for a decade or so. The so-called Celtic Tiger did get put down by the poacher that was the recession (mix metaphors much?) so we'll see where it goes from here.

Being a post-colonial nation though, imperial guilt and shame isn't something that ever really comes up, though.

 

[Canadave]

My bad...wrong term, with "helots" (at least I didn't say "plebeians," which would've been a lot worse. ) However, I do believe Athens still had a significant non-citizen portion of the population.

Yes, that's true. But not all of them were slaves. Athens prided itself on attracting people from all over (craftsmen/artists, merchants, philosophers, students of said philosophers).

Not even in Sparta, as I recall, were all non-citizens slaves. Since citizen inevitably meant soldier, the non-citizens often made up a "middle class" of artisans, tradespeople, etc.

 

[Shaytan]

Here in Italy, we tried to absolve ourselves glorifying the Italian Resistenza, the armed partisan movement that opposed Nazi and Fascist forces.

That sounds very familiar...

 

[Count Zero]

My bad...wrong term, with "helots" (at least I didn't say "plebeians," which would've been a lot worse. ) However, I do believe Athens still had a significant non-citizen portion of the population.

Yes, that's true. But not all of them were slaves. Athens prided itself on attracting people from all over (craftsmen/artists, merchants, philosophers, students of said philosophers).

Not even in Sparta, as I recall, were all non-citizens slaves. Since citizen inevitably meant soldier, the non-citizens often made up a "middle class" of artisans, tradespeople, etc.

Well, not so much artisans, at least not in later times, but the class of citizens (the Spartiates) was rather small because to be part of that class required that you provided for the community meals, your own battle gear, living off the land you owned without doing any work yourself.
As time went on, this class became smaller and smaller, which was the undoing of Sparta's military might. Even before, it was a serious vulnerability. When the Athenians managed to capture 300 Spartiates during the Peloponnesian war, Sparta was willing to sign a cease fire to get them back.

 

[Cicero]

Well, surely it depends upon the degree to which you integrate your sense of self with a sense of national identity. If you buy into the ideologies and philosophies and social norms of your nation (or at least its dominant culture), then what "the country" does/did will affect you personally a lot more, if not, less so.

I wouldn't say that my sense of self is integrated with a sense of national identity, but it is integrated with the values my nation stands for. Those values also inform the Federation's outlook on Star Trek (aside from the prime directive, which I strongly disagree with), which may have had as much of an impact on me as the United States itself.

I would say that I'm glad to be associated with persons who have done so much good and are so admired for their ideals as George Washington, Nathan Hale, Ulysses S. Grant, George C. Marshall, Franklin, Theodore, and Eleanor Roosevelt, etc. I also appreciate the US's historical and continuing openness and resistance to authoritarian or - even majoritarian - tyrannical measures.

 

[RandyS]

By the way, the USA did not create the world's first democracy. That was invented by the ancient Athenians.

Well, either way, I still feel that we are is a society of hypocrites. And, I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure we are, in fact, the first democratic nation.

At least the first one that's lasted.

 

[AdAstra]

I can't say my country's history really affects me that much. I'm from the Netherlands, and recent Dutch history has been somewhat lacking in big events. There aren't really any events or actions that make me feel good or bad or anything.

"Recent" Belgian history prides itself on getting rid of the Dutch, so I'm proud of that.


Belgium isn't really a country that can be proud of many things - we're more of a behind the scenes country. For instance, Belgium and Luxemburg (later joined by the Netherlands) formed the nucleus of the EU's predecessors, which is pretty cool.
I'm not really proud of it per se (or ashamed over some of the bad stuff), but I can be pretty defensive when people like Shameless belittle my (little) country.

 

[Me-Ike]

As someone who comes from a Jewish family, I want to comment that I REALLY appreciate this post.

And state my belief that it is people like you who will make sure it never happens again.

First of all, I am grateful for your post and thank you for your high opinion about me. It would be very easy now to merely agree with you since that's my main sentiment, but there's one thing I'd like to discuss and I hope it doesn't cause offense.

Those Germans who were alive at the time, but claimed that 'they had no idea' what was going on make me furious....and I don't believe it for a second. I mean, it seems to me it would have been pretty hard to miss the rounding up of people....the cattle cars to the camps...and the smell from the crematories. Not to mention the young men of the SS who had to have come home to their families with their stories.

The people of that generation SHOULD feel shame. And the fact that many of them don't - they brush it off with a 'we didn't know' cover story, saddens me greatly. It's like adding insult to injury, you know?

And it doesn't matter that other countries had committed genocide before. That doesn't make it acceptable. The 1940's Germans didn't have any ability to change those other countries courses. But they did have the ability to change their own course. And yes - I DO hold them responsible - they had the ability to make a change....but let it all happen.

I agree with you. I feel also deeply saddened by the great majority denying to have known anything. I believe that there actually existed people who didn't, but there are overwhelmingly many claiming to be pure innocence; and that doesn't sit right with me either.

What I find a little more difficult (and this might only be a question of semantics) is to hold everyone responsible. Yes, they are responsible for what happened and we today are responsible for never letting it happen again; I wouldn't dream of arguing with that. What I now find difficult is the distinction between those who supported what happened and those who only knew what was going on by the time it was immensely dangerous to speak out. By that I don't mean dish out a pardon to everyone faced an obstacle and thus didn't do anything. I rather hope to convey that I at least understand if people were afraid for their lives and chose to remain silent.
It's very easy to feel guilty from my warm couch. But to be completely honest, I don't know if I would be brave enough to actually risk my live. If I learned today that my government was secretly murdering people all along and will do the same to me if I dare make as much as a sound, I don't know if I would be courageous enough to try anyway. This is a little oversimplified, of course. The Nazis didn't preach brotherhood for all. But not everyone went out and preached their slogans as well.

Some did risk their lives and most of them consequently lost it. I am eternally grateful that they existed and did their damndest to make a change. But I also acknowledge that those who didn't weren't necessarily bad people.

Maybe you meant that and I am just being overly nitpicky. Or maybe you see things differently. I still think it's worth mentioning.

 

[Me-Ike]

Double post, but I didn't really want to talk about booty in my last one.

Point is, I wouldn't take history too seriously. It's interesting, informative, and can help with decision-making, but it's not directly part of you. I have connections to the USA, UK, India and Greece so have large amounts of imperialist genocidal mania running in my veins. But also a lot of high art, culture, initiative, entrepreneurialism, etc, etc, also embedded in my DNA. Without sounding too much like the coda scene to a Star Trek episode, one's heritage is never all bad or all good, it's what you choose to draw from it that helps defines you as a person.

Personally, I choose to draw on the genocidal mania but chacun a son gout...

Oh, most of the time I don't wake up ragged with guilt (except after that one party). I just happen to think a lot more about it lately due to my master thesis because of which I am currently dealing with many WWII movies. The questions aren't new, of course, but that's why it's on the very front of my mind currently.

That said, I did wonder where your natural predilection and talent for world domination sprang from, although I wouldn't have guessed at its being embedded this deeply. Please promise me to never have a love-child with Brain.

Yes actually I would since I'd have bloody chance of succeeding in the work market.

Well, and if the 18th century beauty standard of paleness and a lovehandle too many would still apply, I'd get more booty. We're both doomed to cope with the present.

 

[Holdfast]

Double post, but I didn't really want to talk about booty in my last one.

It's a shame because every post is automatically improved by it.

Point is, I wouldn't take history too seriously. It's interesting, informative, and can help with decision-making, but it's not directly part of you. I have connections to the USA, UK, India and Greece so have large amounts of imperialist genocidal mania running in my veins. But also a lot of high art, culture, initiative, entrepreneurialism, etc, etc, also embedded in my DNA. Without sounding too much like the coda scene to a Star Trek episode, one's heritage is never all bad or all good, it's what you choose to draw from it that helps defines you as a person.

Personally, I choose to draw on the genocidal mania but chacun a son gout...

Oh, most of the time I don't wake up ragged with guilt (except after that one party). I just happen to think a lot more about it lately due to my master thesis because of which I am currently dealing with many WWII movies. The questions aren't new, of course, but that's why it's on the very front of my mind currently.

I always knew that work and learning things had a damaging psychological effect on people. Let us entertain you with lowbrow amusement instead.

That said, I did wonder where your natural predilection and talent for world domination sprang from, although I wouldn't have guessed at its being embedded this deeply. Please promise me to never have a love-child with Brain.

That would be an interesting feat of biology on several different levels. Mind you, he is quite the genius, so who knows....

 

[Emher]

Yes actually I would since I'd have bloody chance of succeeding in the work market.

Well, and if the 18th century beauty standard of paleness and a lovehandle too many would still apply, I'd get more booty. We're both doomed to cope with the present.

I don't want to cope, I want to own! I've been coping most of life, and definitely every since leaving high school. At some point I'd like actually lasting good things to occur.

Although at this point I'd settle for some temporary good things.

 

[Me-Ike]

It's a shame because every post is automatically improved by it.

You will not derail my very own thread by talking about booty. No, here it's showin' or goin', sugar button!

I always knew that work and learning things had a damaging psychological effect on people. Let us entertain you with lowbrow amusement instead.

My brain cells are in a great danger of being overly healthy, I give you that. I was thinking of a little Mozart to get it down a notch again. Or maybe Einstein? I haven't read for pleasure in quite a while.

That would be an interesting feat of biology on several different levels. Mind you, he is quite the genius, so who knows....

The only real trouble I see is that his fashion style is abysmal. Your attraction will be severly limited. Hm, just when you thought you held the recipe for absolute rulership in your hands.

I don't want to cope, I want to own! I've been coping most of life, and definitely every since leaving high school. At some point I'd like actually lasting good things to occur.

Although at this point I'd settle for some temporary good things.

You and me both. But the way I see it, we have a good chance of this in the future if we put effort into this. In the meantime, don't concentrate on what you not have.

 

[Holdfast]

My brain cells are in a great danger of being overly healthy, I give you that. I was thinking of a little Mozart to get it down a notch again. Or maybe Einstein? I haven't read for pleasure in quite a while.

"Quite a while"? That's a very relative term. Einstein would be proud.

 

[An Officer]

I have some very strong reactions to my country's history, both negative and positive, so I choose not to dwell too much on that. I don't want to be a frothing at the mouth flag waving patriot, nor do I want to have problems with my own identity. It's a fine line to walk, and I try to walk it somewhere in the middle. The important thing is to be a good human being, it doesn't really matter which little square of the planet you came from. I don't want to fall into the trap of using my heritage to feed a superiority complex, nor an inferiority complex, I'll leave that as the pastime of insecure minds.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Take it from an American, you are correct. Most of us ARE mindless. This is a nation that overpays both it's actors and sports players, and inappropriately worships them while allowing people in far more important jobs to be compensated for far less money, making it next to impossible for them to live.

Well, in all honesty, I can't name a country that doesn't do that.

As for patriotism, I consider it to be evil. It's nothing more than flag-waving grandstanding. Think about it. What is patriotism? A belief in one's country's perfection and superiority. By showing the flag, one country is basically saying "Hey look, we're better than you!". This kind of shit is how wars start.

I'm not sure I agree. I would say that patriotism is yearning for your country to become better, not believing it to be perfect. I don't think it's a bad thing to show you flag, or sing your anthem: not more than having a dinner for your family or friends.

Here in Italy, we tried to absolve ourselves glorifying the Italian Resistenza, the armed partisan movement that opposed Nazi and Fascist forces.

That sounds very familiar...

Yeah, i guess it's unsurprising. Even if they started on opposite sides, Italy and France were more or less in the same shit by the end of the war. Where you had Vichy, we had Salò. In both countries, the importance of Resistance movements can never be overestimated, both in military support for Allied forces, both in showing that a big part of the population was ready to take arms against the fascist governments. But I think that it's common to glorify the partisans not just for their role, but because they offer salvation to the country against the guilt felt for fascists and collaborators.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I never expected you to agree with me--but man, iguana, what you said about patriotism is very eloquent.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I never expected you to agree with me--but man, iguana, what you said about patriotism is very eloquent.

Thank you, especially since I was not sure that it made any sense. There is a lot of confusion and grey areas between patriotism, nationalism, jingoism, and a lot of other -ism, just like jealousy and obsession can be ugly sides of attraction. I chose to define patriotism as the best incarnation of that sentiment, but it's far from unambiguous.