Your Country's History

[Nerys Ghemor]

Patriotism, even celebrating loudly and brightly doesn't have to be mindless. Take America. I know our history has fallen quite short of perfect, but I have no problem flying the flag or celebrating the good things. Not only does that honor the good things, but it's a reminder of how we can use those positive values to fix things that aren't working right.

Well, respectfully, I'd say that the USA is not really a good example. It's a sort of poster child for mindless patriotism, to be honest. (That doesn't mean that all of it is mindless or all Americans are mindless or anything like that. I don't mean to cause offense.)

Some of that, I think, is a cultural issue--a lot of European countries seem from an American perspective to express shame towards themselves regardless of whether it's deserved or not. We do have much more outward display than Europe typically accepts, but that display should not be conflated with ignorance. If someone speaks cruelly, then they should be judged for their unkindness. But, that does not invalidate our customs just because they are different from some other nations. Not to mention the fact that because our beliefs do tend to be different, we are sometimes condemned just because of the disagreement.

Like I said, we're not saints. We have screwed up, sometimes in a big way. But just as other nations ask that we tolerate differences in values and customs, some of what we have here is just that: values and customs and is NOT automatically harmful because it's different. Tolerance and understanding, in my opinion, should flow in two directions, not just in one.

 

[Kegg]

Some of that, I think, is a cultural issue--a lot of European countries seem from an American perspective to express shame towards themselves regardless of whether it's deserved or not.

Apathy is also big. A lot of people simply do not care about natonal identity. There's not a lot of shame where I come from, but there's a lot of apathy.

 

[Daneel]

Trippy, why did they suggest using a US interstate highway? Is it just because it's Google? Pardon this stupid question, but do you all have interstates coast to coast?

I'm no expert on our highway system, but I'd imagine it's just more convenient to go through the U.S. than go north around the Great Lakes. My family use to do that all the time when we'd travel from southern Ontario to Winnipeg, Manitoba... and Ontario and Manitoba are connected!

It would probably depend on where you're going in Canada -- Vancouver is pretty close to the U.S. border, so that's probably one reason why it'd be easier to go through the States. If you were headed somewhere a bit more north in B.C., say Kamloops, they'd probably suggest a route that stays within Canada.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I'm Italian, and I can definitively say that it affects me very much.

Actually, I think you have alot to be proud of. For a relatively small country, Italy has given more than it's fair share of culture and beauty to the world - fabulous art, opera, excellent food, excellent wine...and that's not even counting the fact that it amassed the largest empire the western world has ever known, and has contributed greatly to the largest Christian church in the world.

Gotta give Italy props, that's for sure!

Plus...you have REALLY hot men!

Yeah...I've been to about 40+ countries...and Italy is by far my favorite. You have an awesome country.

Well, thank you very much! Especially for the hot men comment...

Thing is, I gotta ask myself: why I'm happy about hearing that? This isn't like I did anything to deserve that. However, I am happy indeed about hearing people appreciating Italian culture and arts, and this just confirm how much my national identity means to me.

However, it's easy to dismiss the bad parts when they are so removed from modern times. Nobody is gonna be offended that the Romans wiped out Carthage or put the blame on modern Italians. This is not true for something so recent like WWII. Here in Italy, we tried to absolve ourselves glorifying the Italian Resistenza, the armed partisan movement that opposed Nazi and Fascist forces. After the war, we just pretended it was all fault of the Fascist party, while the common people was just a victim of the madness of Mussolini. Obviously, it was not that simple. It was really a terrible moment in our history, that saw father against son and brother against brother, but we avoided the blame telling ourselves that we were not actually the bad guys, we were just misguided. Italian fascists did terrible things in Greece, Slovenia, Croatia, Albania, Africa, virtually calling upon the Italian civilian population that historically lived there the revenge of the Titoist partisans. The happenings of the Foibe is still politically difficult to touch here. Personally, I don't think that many Italians have come to term with our role in WWII, preferring to see the German Nazis as the villains of the piece, while we were nothing more than the goofy henchman that is too clumsy to be actually a threat. Now I think is too late to deal with that, as many people that actively participated in the war are dying. And, as our historical memory fades, more and more apologists are coming out, trying to rewrite history in a more favorable light for us. This is the challenge we face now, but in this climate of clash of civilizations and rising intolerance, I must say that I don't think we are meeting the challenge very well now. Personally, I feel much more ashamed of that than what our grandfathers did, because I don't want Italy to slip again in the errors of its past, not under our generation's "watch".

Ok, that was long and probably off-topic, sorry about that, it just slipped from my fingers.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

As far as I'm concerned, my country's history doesn't even begin until its populace hails me as its Lord Protector.

 

[Canadave]

Trippy, why did they suggest using a US interstate highway? Is it just because it's Google? Pardon this stupid question, but do you all have interstates coast to coast?

I'm no expert on our highway system, but I'd imagine it's just more convenient to go through the U.S. than go north around the Great Lakes. My family use to do that all the time when we'd travel from southern Ontario to Winnipeg, Manitoba... and Ontario and Manitoba are connected!

It's partly more direct, yeah, but it's also the fact that places like Northern Ontario are pretty sparsely populated, so there's no reason for a four lane highway. Highway 17, part of the Trans-Canada Highway, is incredibly desolate between Sault Ste. Marie (~75,000 people) and Thunder Bay (~110,000 people). It's about 700 kilometres, and there are only about three "major" towns (all below 10,000 people) along the way. It can be quite beautiful along the way, but it is definitely lonely.

In fact, a significant chunk of the Trans-Canada is only two lanes... most of Ontario, half of BC, a bit in Quebec, all of PEI and most of Newfoundland only has a two lane highway.

 

[Trippy]

Not my picture, but the 401 through Kingston is one of my favourite parts of the highway. Cut right through the Canadian Sheild, upon which my little corner of Canada (where I was raised, Brockville) was built.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

but let's just say I have alot more confidence in guys like Me-Ike.

I believe Me-Ike is not, in fact, a guy.

 

[Kestra]

That's interesting. Do you feel somehow more connected to one country than the other or would you say equally?

I am half Dutch, for example, but apart from having some deeper knowledge about the country and a certain fondness I hardly feel connected to the Netherlands at all. I have to admit to not speaking the language, though, maybe that's part of it.

I do identify quite a bit with my Indian heritage. But I was born and raised in the United States and I consider myself an American before anything else.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Sure, my country's History affects me. I relate very strongly to the Revolution and the Founding Fathers, especially Jefferson and Franklin.

...

As for feeling guilty over anything bad that was done, I have no reason to. Anything bad was caused by traitors and failures, by definition.

Well, what about Jefferson owning slaves and all that?

I's curious.

I talked about that here.

 

[Holdfast]

Cabinet Secretary Sir Humphrey Appleby: Why do you suppose we [the UK] went into it the EU?
Prime Minister Jim Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free western nations.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really! We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
Jim: Why did the French go into it then?
Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
Jim: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
Sir Humphrey: Well no, they went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.

Point is, I wouldn't take history too seriously. It's interesting, informative, and can help with decision-making, but it's not directly part of you. I have connections to the USA, UK, India and Greece so have large amounts of imperialist genocidal mania running in my veins. But also a lot of high art, culture, initiative, entrepreneurialism, etc, etc, also embedded in my DNA. Without sounding too much like the coda scene to a Star Trek episode, one's heritage is never all bad or all good, it's what you choose to draw from it that helps defines you as a person.

Personally, I choose to draw on the genocidal mania but chacun a son gout...

 

[Emher]

And now the government this it's a good idea to try and lock up about a third of the population.

Huh? What?

Okay here's the thing: after applications of some laws they (in conjuncture with big American entertainment corporations I can only imagine) want to put everyone who downloads illegally in jail. Which would make sense seeing as it's illegal and all. Thing is this is firstly jail time is waaaay over the top for a lot of this, fines would do, but also if they wanted to follow this trough they would have to put at least a third of the population in jail since anonymous studies show that it's at least that amount of the people that actively DL illegally (i.e. torrents and so on). That would mean pretty much the remaining two thirds would have to run the prisons and the entire country would be a big prison.

Let me put it this way: about a hundred policemen are working on illegal downloading today. Guess who many work with finding and stopping pedophiles, child pornography and so on? Three. If anything that's a proof that the government have fucked up their priorities.

Once we where Vikings and pillaged and killed and stuff. Now we're nose deep in unrealistic law books. How the fuck did that happen?

So, you'd rather that the pillaging and killing was still going on?

Yes actually I would since I'd have bloody chance of succeeding in the work market.

 

[Jeri]

Daneel, Canadadave and Trippy, thanks for the interesting info! Glad I asked. I think everybody agrees Canada is beautiful; amazing geology.

 

[Thor Damar]

As far as I'm concerned, my country's history doesn't even begin until its populace hails me as its Lord Protector.

Alan B'Stard is that you?

On a slightly more serious note it's an historical shame that the Republic didn't last longer. Damn Cromwell.

 

[Canadave]

Not my picture, but the 401 through Kingston is one of my favourite parts of the highway. Cut right through the Canadian Sheild, upon which my little corner of Canada (where I was raised, Brockville) was built.

That's not the Trans-Canada, actually... the only 400-series highways that are are the 417 through Ottawa and the 400 north of Orillia.

Though I agree, the section around Kingston is a (or perhaps "the only" ) neat part of the 401.

And yes, I am a bit of an infrastructure nerd. Quiet.

 

[Count Zero]

Apathy is also big. A lot of people simply do not care about natonal identity. There's not a lot of shame where I come from, but there's a lot of apathy.

That's weird. I would have expected the Irish to be much more patriotic because they regained their national sovereignty so late and nations who do that tend to overcompensate a little, like Poland or the Baltic states.

Okay here's the thing: after applications of some laws they (in conjuncture with big American entertainment corporations I can only imagine) want to put everyone who downloads illegally in jail.

In jail? Really? That's way out of proportion. It's also weird that Sweden would try to introduce such legislation when all other countries are much more lenient about it and even stuff like Hadopi (the three-strikes-rule) in France has caused much uproar and outrage (and rightfully so, I might add).

Let me put it this way: about a hundred policemen are working on illegal downloading today. Guess who many work with finding and stopping pedophiles, child pornography and so on? Three. If anything that's a proof that the government have fucked up their priorities.

Indeed.

 

[RandyS]

Patriotism, even celebrating loudly and brightly doesn't have to be mindless. Take America. I know our history has fallen quite short of perfect, but I have no problem flying the flag or celebrating the good things. Not only does that honor the good things, but it's a reminder of how we can use those positive values to fix things that aren't working right.

Well, respectfully, I'd say that the USA is not really a good example. It's a sort of poster child for mindless patriotism, to be honest. (That doesn't mean that all of it is mindless or all Americans are mindless or anything like that. I don't mean to cause offense.)

Take it from an American, you are correct. Most of us ARE mindless. This is a nation that overpays both it's actors and sports players, and inappropriately worships them while allowing people in far more important jobs to be compensated for far less money, making it next to impossible for them to live. And, allowing homelessness and people to go hungry when we clearly have the resources to help them, but the haves would rather enrich themselves than part with some of their wealth in order to help the have-nots. And let's not even get started on our revisionist history. Oh sure, we created the world's first democracy, and all it took was the complete destruction of the society that was already living here.

As for patriotism, I consider it to be evil. It's nothing more than flag-waving grandstanding. Think about it. What is patriotism? A belief in one's country's perfection and superiority. By showing the flag, one country is basically saying "Hey look, we're better than you!". This kind of shit is how wars start.

 

[Count Zero]

By the way, the USA did not create the world's first democracy. That was invented by the ancient Athenians.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Count Zero--with all due respect, you don't have it quite right about the US form of government. It is the first of its kind, but it is not a democracy with anything like the form Athens had. It may be called that for convenience, but it really isn't. (And this isn't a cynical anti-government rant...rather, prepare for way more history than you wanted. )

It's a democratic republic, not a pure democracy, which is what Athens had (you didn't speak through elected officials--you spoke for yourself, if you were a citizen and not a helot). A democratic republic is a government of representatives whose job (supposedly) is to speak for the people who elected them. Another thing that separates the US government from its antecedents (specifically through the British parliamentary system) is the fact that there is (in theory) a strict balance of powers between executive, legislative, and judicial branches, whereas in the British parliamentary system the executive branch is directly answerable to the legislature. I should note, however, that the British system has evolved with the monarchy's loss of power.

In 1783, when the US government in its current form was founded (the US actually had one try at setting up a government that failed--through the Articles of Confederation), the king still ruled supreme though Parliament could and did flex its muscles quite significantly at times, thanks to the effect of the Magna Carta. (The failed Cromwell regime still did not have the same division of powers that the US government now has.) In contrast, the President cannot directly order Congress on what to do. He can veto a law, but said veto is subject to an override if Congress can get the 2/3 majority required to do so (a tall order, but it IS doable and happened many times in the Clinton administration, for example).

Now, moving on to the idea of a republic. One of the first republics was Rome, I believe, but the Senate was more like a cross between the Cabinet/Ministers and the Electoral College. They were not a legislative body (the king/emperor originated laws, which is not the role played by the executive branch in either the American OR modern British system) in the same way our Congress is, although certain practices like the filibuster DID originate in Rome.

Now, take all of this together and while there were antecedents from whom our system can claim heritage (Greek, Roman, and British being the main ones) as a democractic republic, with no monarchy--I believe the United States is indeed the first. (Again, the Cromwell regime in England is very debatable as to whether that was a republic in anything but name...I'd invite a British poster to clarify.)

 

[Count Zero]

Count Zero--with all due respect, you don't have it quite right about the US form of government. It is the first of its kind, but it is not a democracy with anything like the form Athens had. It may be called that for convenience, but it really isn't.

Oh, I'm well aware of the discussion about what 'true' democracy is or isn't. I minored in Ancient History and this question usually comes up when Athenian democracy is discussed.
We use the Athenian term so I'd say that what the Athenians had was definetely a democracy (since they basically defined the term). It's more of a question whether modern democracies are actually democracies or not. In fact, for a long time democracy was thought to be impossible to implement on a large scale, i.e. in modern nation states. The invention of representative/parliamentary democracy solved that question.
The US might have invented a certain form of democracy (let's call it republican parliamentary democracy) but not democracy itself, which was what I felt the original statement implied.

It's a democratic republic, not a pure democracy, which is what Athens had (you didn't speak through elected officials--you spoke for yourself, if you were a citizen and not a helot).

There weren't any helots in Athens. Helots were the suppressed original population of Lakedaimon and Messenia, a territory ruled by Sparta. Basically, they were state slaves.