You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[T'Girl]

So you're saying the Federation Council okayed the use of an illegal cloaking device?

We saw a near identical "duck blind" in who watches the watchers. It would seem to be a standard piece of Federation technology.

In the case of the holoship, this is after the Romulan said it was okay for the Federation to use a cloaking device on the Defiant and that might indicate that the treaty was basically voided with the Romulans agreement.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It would reflect better on the movie if it was meant to portray the conflict in an ambiguous way, but I just don't see it. Everything from the beauty of the Baku, the ugliness of the Son'a, and the fact that "our heroes" all line up on the side of the Baku indicates that we are meant to see the conflict in pure black and white terms.

Relocating groups of people who have made an area their home for a long time is something that still goes on, even to this day. I remember Jews being moved because of territory given over to Palistinians, and they wore stars of David on their shirts in protest, as Israeli police carry out their orders to remove them. The passionate defiance of these hold-outs and their circumstances isn't a bad idea to base a story on, actually. Of course, the stories contained in "Trails of Tears" isn't iether. A lot of Human drama is to be had with a story like that.

Unfortunately ... STARFLEET's backdoor involvement prevents this so-called blood feud from ever escalating and the only passion being shown is by F. Murray Abraham. This movie cried out for people being wrenched, pulled, torn away from their lives and for STARFLEET to be stuck in a Catch22, deciding how to get around the Prime Directive. The elements are all there in this movie, it just needed some judicious editing and rewriting, that's all ...

 

[SeerSGB]

Actually cut the Son'a out, keep the rings, and have Starfleet Medical/Commandpushing to use the planet to house war refufess/wounded cause of the rings' healing properties. Kick the Baku down to a very primitive, tribal, native born race, and removing them from the planet will kill them.

 

[DonIago]

Wouldn't solve the question of why the Baku need the -entire planet- though...

 

[Hartzilla2007]

No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.

For all we know, it is exactly how eminent domain works in the 24th century Federation.

That doesn't exactly disprove my point that the TNG Federation is acting like Russia under Putin in this movie.

In fact it's just the opposite.

What with eminent domain of today requiring a legal proceeding which in part (from the sounds of it) finds out if a government can actually seize the piece of land in question and makes sure the owner is given just compensation.

You can find out about that stuff here

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/eminent+domain

So I don't really see why the federation would change to a version that shits on due process rights.

Actually cut the Son'a out, keep the rings, and have Starfleet Medical/Commandpushing to use the planet to house war refufess/wounded cause of the rings' healing properties. Kick the Baku down to a very primitive, tribal, native born race, and removing them from the planet will kill them.

And they couldn't set up the hospital refugee center on the other side of the planet why exactly?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

This movie would have been a lot more interesting if Dougherty had at least one Starfleet ship in the area that respected his POV. One wonders whether Our Heroes would have been so willing to engage in hostilities with their own people versus a bunch of (manipulatively) ugly aliens.

Well the crew of the Starfleet ship would probably be screwed if they went along with Ru'afo and Dougherty's plan to attack the Enterprise.

Say what you will about getting into a fire fight with Picard but unprovoked attacks on the Federation flagship just to stop them from complaining to the Federation council are not likely to well received by said council, what with Picard mentioning Dougherty possibly facing a court martial for that.

indeed, yet another point about the movie that makes no sense. Dougherty outright says that he's acting on orders from the council then gets freaked out about Riker... going to contact the council. So... he's going to inform them about something they know about, and gave the orders about.

Assuming he wasn't lying his ass off about the council okaying the plan.

The fact that the script segment that was posted earlier in the thread partially cuts out the part where Picard points out Dougherty is actually hiding what's going on from the Starfleet officers working for him kind of calls that into question.

Plus the fact that normally the Enterprise wouldn't be able to contact the federation council, find out if Dougherty was lying his ass off, and then come back before the particles were harvested and the planet rendered uninhabitable. So Dougherty freaking out in a situation where the Enterprise has time to contact the bosses and still get back to an inhabitable ringed planet looks kind of suspicious especially with the whole shooting Data thing.

Then there is the federation council deciding to put a stop to it rather quickly for a large governing body considering how fast Riker got back to the planet.

And finally it's not like a crazy admiral wouldn't think the council would be suddenly okay with doing stuff like conquering a planet behind their backs.

I mean in universe this is only a few years after Admiral Layton thought all he needed to take over the federation was to depose the president and hold Earth with only having enough ships to hold the system supporting him because the other over several thousand ships their captains, the other off world admirals commanding starbases, and the 149 other federation planets would just roll over for no reason just because he has Earth.

So yeah I'm not going to believe Dougherty just because he says so.

 

[DonIago]

The council didn't "put a stop" to anything. They said they'd reevaluate the situation.

It's essentially a temporary injunction, and those can go either way.

 

[T'Girl]

What with eminent domain of today requiring a legal proceeding which in part (from the sounds of it) finds out if a government can actually seize the piece of land in question and makes sure the owner is given just compensation.

That assumes that the Council saw the Baku's "claim" as legitimate in the first place, The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet, in doing so he could have been repeating the Federation Councils decision on the matter.

 

[BillJ]

That doesn't exactly disprove my point that the TNG Federation is acting like Russia under Putin in this movie.

In fact it's just the opposite.

What with eminent domain of today requiring a legal proceeding which in part (from the sounds of it) finds out if a government can actually seize the piece of land in question and makes sure the owner is given just compensation.

I know exactly what eminent domain is in the here and now. Problem is we're not discussing the "here and now", we're talking about a society that exists three hundred years in the future and has one-hundred different species as members.

Trying to ascribe human values, which we don't even all agree on, to such a society is beyond ludicrous. People claim they watch Star Trek because its "smart and sophisticated" yet go for the most black and white explanation possible when discussing the ethics of the future.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...

The only thing that is clear to me about Star Trek: Insurrection is that Picard betrayed his oath as a Starfleet officer and committed treason against his government. If he wants to have a hand in those types of decisions, he should resign his commission and run for a seat on the Federation Council.

I have to go back, if only to ...slow things down at the Federation Council.

The quoted is not the job of a starship captain. I don't care if his name is Jean-Luc Picard, James T. Kirk or Seymour Butts.

 

[DonIago]

Agreed. The only way Picard should be able to get out of this without at least a formal inquiry is if it develops that Dougherty really was lying about his orders...and even then an inquiry would likely result.

 

[SeerSGB]

Wouldn't solve the question of why the Baku need the -entire planet- though...

Some non-native microbe in the Feddies bloodstream that could kill massive chunks of the population? Bump the number from 600 to 6 million-plus natives.

or the effect is localized to a specific area of the planet.

Or, there is no effect to be harvested and the only reason that it works on the Baku is cause of something unique to their bodies.

 

[BillJ]

Or, there is no effect to be harvested and the only reason that it works on the Baku is cause of something unique to their bodies.

Which isn't the case because Geordi grew new eyes while there.

 

[T'Girl]

^ And Beverly and Deanna grew firmer boobs.

(The real reason the Federation wanted the particles)

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet,

You mean the planet the Ba'ku colonized about 100 years before the federation even existed?

Seems kind of hard to have a better claim on a planet than people who were living there before your government existed.

 

[BillJ]

The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet,

You mean the planet the Ba'ku colonized about 100 years before the federation even existed?

Seems kind of hard to have a better claim on a planet than people who were living there before your government existed.

Regardless of who was there if one of the Empire's in the area had the planet as part of its territory then gave that territory to the Federation during a treaty negotiation, then the planet would still belong to the Federation.

We know two hundred years prior to Insurrection that the area belonged to the Klingons. It isn't a stretch to think it belonged to them three hundred years earlier.

 

[T'Girl]

The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet,

You mean the planet the Ba'ku colonized about 100 years before the federation even existed?

Yes, that's the one the Baku are not indigenous too.

What would the substance of any claim on their parts be based on anyway?

"We got here first?"

 

[BillJ]

What's their hold on the planet based on anyway? "We got here first?"

I'll refer you to the court case *"Finders vs. Keepers".

*Couldn't find the Futurama clip on YouTube.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

We know two hundred years prior to Insurrection that the area belonged to the Klingons. It isn't a stretch to think it belonged to them three hundred years earlier.

except the episode mentions that the Klingons hadn't mapped the Briar Patch at the time of the episode except that they knew of two inhabitable planets in the region, so this coupled with the Klingons not bothering with the two planets implies that either the klingons just moved into the general area or they just don't give a crap about it enough to go formally taking control through their usual conquering planets and setting up bases stick.

 

[urbandefault]

The big thing here is that no one ever asked the Baku. About anything.

The Sona lied from the beginning to the Feds. That automatically makes them suspect.

The fact that they were expelled from the Baku village did not condemn them to a slow death. That is something they chose on their own. If they were not happy with their decision, they could always have gone back and lived in peace on another part of the planet.

It does not matter what benefit the particles or radiation or whatever could provide to anyone else. That is beside the fact that The Sona were exacting revenge on their families. Starfleet, personified by Doughery, did not do its due diligence in discovering the Sona's motives.

It bothers me that so many people here hold that the Baku were "selfish bastards."

If I have something that you think you need, will you come and take it by force? Or will you ask me if I am willing to share? How do you know that I am not sharing already?

The attitudes in this thread tells me a lot about the people who take one side or the other, and I am not at all happy about it.

Not happy at all.

 

[DonIago]

Are you suggesting that if the Federation had simply asked the Baku to share the particles that the Baku would have happily packed up and left the planet?

I find it more likely given what we see that they would have said, "Sorry for your problems, but they're none of our business." Which, ironically, is exactly what the Feds would have been in a position to say to the Baku when the Son'a came knocking.

The whole idea that whether you should be willing to make a small sacrifice to benefit even hundreds of other people should be contingent on whether you were asked nicely first is ridiculous. It no doubt becomes obvious to the Baku at some point during the film (if not decades earlier) that they're sitting on the Cure for Cancer, but instead of showing any willingness to share what they have for the benefit of many, many others? They sit on it. And they don't even have the courage of their convictions, because it's not like they actually refuse to see violence committed in their names...they just don't want to pull the triggers themselves. Yeah, that's noble.

How exactly is this -not- selfish?

Yes, I'd get pissy if I came home one day to find I'd been evicted. But I'd like to think I could look past my pride if I found that not only had I been evicted because my home contained the cure for AIDS, but I was being given a new home, free of charge, that was at least as nice as the one I'd been evicted from.

But hey, if you want to sit on a medical miracle until someone specifically asks how much you're willing to sell your house for, that's your business.

Good people don't wait to be asked for their help; good people offer their help.