You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[sonak]

This movie would have been a lot more interesting if Dougherty had at least one Starfleet ship in the area that respected his POV. One wonders whether Our Heroes would have been so willing to engage in hostilities with their own people versus a bunch of (manipulatively) ugly aliens.

Well the crew of the Starfleet ship would probably be screwed if they went along with Ru'afo and Dougherty's plan to attack the Enterprise.

Say what you will about getting into a fire fight with Picard but unprovoked attacks on the Federation flagship just to stop them from complaining to the Federation council are not likely to well received by said council, what with Picard mentioning Dougherty possibly facing a court martial for that.

indeed, yet another point about the movie that makes no sense. Dougherty outright says that he's acting on orders from the council then gets freaked out about Riker... going to contact the council. So... he's going to inform them about something they know about, and gave the orders about.



It's like no one even proofread the script. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too:


"Picard and his crew go rogue, defying the Federation!"


"oh but wait, it's actually just one rogue admiral! Except... he's not rogue because he's under orders from the council!" But wait! They didn't know what they were doing!"


what lousy writing.

 

[BillJ]

It was called investigating why Data went nuts. Which Dougherty agreed to if you will recall.

No, he didn't...

PICARD: Well the Enterprise could be at your position in two days, Admiral.
DOUGHERTY (on viewscreen): That's probably not a good idea. Your ship hasn't been fitted for this region. There are environmental concerns.

Not only that... he blew off the orders to go to the Goren system to mediate a territorial dispute. Someone else likely gave those orders. The Enterprise is not Picard's personal pleasure craft.

 

[BillJ]

indeed, yet another point about the movie that makes no sense. Dougherty outright says that he's acting on orders from the council then gets freaked out about Riker... going to contact the council. So... he's going to inform them about something they know about, and gave the orders about.

They also seem to forget that it would take the Enterprise two days to get out of the Briar Patch to even communicate with the Federation. The script is a complete and utter mess.

 

[JarodRussell]

indeed, yet another point about the movie that makes no sense. Dougherty outright says that he's acting on orders from the council then gets freaked out about Riker... going to contact the council. So... he's going to inform them about something they know about, and gave the orders about.

They also seem to forget that it would take the Enterprise two days to get out of the Briar Patch to even communicate with the Federation. The script is a complete and utter mess.

Wrong. 1 day to reach the patch, 1 day to reach the planet.

Dougherty lied to the council. They probably greenlit the particle extraction, but he hid the forced relocation part. That's what Picard wanted the council to know.

They FIRED at Data as soon as he found the holoship. Dougherty then lied about the incident. And they fired at Data, Picard and Anij as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was illegal and the council didn't know about it.

 

[BillJ]

And they fired at Data, Picard and Anij as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was illegal and the council didn't know about it.

The S'ona fired at them, make sure you're putting all the information out there.

The holoship is just another piece that makes absolutely no sense. Why hide a starship with a cloaking device and transporters in the bottom of a lake?

 

[Commishsleer]

"The Sona could establish a colony on another part of the planet."

"How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong?"

EDIT: Watching the battle in the hills. How is this not classic Trek?

Picard: "You wouldn't kill your own people, Ruafo. Your own parents."

("Parricide." Sorry, I've never seen that word before.)

Sona guy whose name I didn't catch: "It will kill them all."
Ruafo: "No one hated them more than you."

Picard: "It's hard not to see how it's turned Ruafo into a madman. And you, into a coward. A man that denies his own conscience. A coward without the moral courage to prevent an atrocity."

"Is this how a Federation officer pleads for his life?"

"I'm not pleading for my life, I'm pleading for yours."

Additional edit:

After going through the movie again, my opinion has not changed. The Baku should have been left alone.

Sorry folks, but Picard was right.

Picard was right about what?
Interfering in an internal dispute or not interfering in an internal dispute?
The dispute between the Son'a and Baku was just like one Klingon family against another. I agree the Federation should not have interfered one way or the other.
Morally maybe but not as a Federation Officer. Even morally -I'm not so sure. If the Baku had means they were not prepared to use then that's their own fate. They were prepared to use weapons to kill Data and presumably their 'means' was how they got rid of dissidents (Sona) in the past.

I see that you think the battle in the hills was classic trek but it was done so badly that I didn't enjoy it. The cliched kids losing his worm-thing and getting lost. People who we didn't know or care about were ruthlessly beamed away to safety? I mean who cared, where was the tension, the drama?
I really only care about my heroes.

I'm also thinking that say the Sona requested membership in the Federation, would it be denied because the Baku refused? Does every single person have to agree?
And say if the Baku were not aliens but an old Federation colony, I think the Federation would have no hesitation in taking over the planet.

 

[BillJ]

Wrong. 1 day to reach the patch, 1 day to reach the planet.

One day or two, it really doesn't make a difference...

"In six hours, every living thing in this system will be dead or dying."

 

[JarodRussell]

And they fired at Data, Picard and Anij as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was illegal and the council didn't know about it.

The S'ona fired at them, make sure you're putting all the information out there.

Yes, the Son'a, who worked with Admiral Dougherty, protected a hidden Starfleet ship with force against other Starfleet personel. They worked together to keep it a secret, and were ready to destroy Data because of that.

Wrong. 1 day to reach the patch, 1 day to reach the planet.

One day or two, it really doesn't make a difference...

It makes all the difference when you incorrectly cited it as an example for how much of a mess the script is supposed to be.

 

[BillJ]

It makes all the difference when you incorrectly cited it as an example for how much of a mess the script is supposed to be.

I like how you edited out why one day or two didn't make a difference...

 

[JarodRussell]

It makes all the difference when you incorrectly cited it as an example for how much of a mess the script is supposed to be.

I like how you edited out why one day or two didn't make a difference...

Why? That 6 hours line makes no difference here. There is no exact time given between the Enterprise destroying the Son'a ships, Picard's and Anij's capture and Rua'fo's ultimatum. Also considering that at the beginning of the film the Enterprise entered the Briar Patch at 1/3 impulse speed, but later Riker decided to go full impulse speed.

 

[sonak]

indeed, yet another point about the movie that makes no sense. Dougherty outright says that he's acting on orders from the council then gets freaked out about Riker... going to contact the council. So... he's going to inform them about something they know about, and gave the orders about.

They also seem to forget that it would take the Enterprise two days to get out of the Briar Patch to even communicate with the Federation. The script is a complete and utter mess.

Wrong. 1 day to reach the patch, 1 day to reach the planet.

Dougherty lied to the council. They probably greenlit the particle extraction, but he hid the forced relocation part. That's what Picard wanted the council to know.

They FIRED at Data as soon as he found the holoship. Dougherty then lied about the incident. And they fired at Data, Picard and Anij as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was illegal and the council didn't know about it.

there's no evidence that Dougherty lied to the council. The entire set-up of the observation post(with a large group of Starfleet personnel) as well as the holoship indicates that the council was fully aware that the planet had a small number of inhabitants. Once again you're forced to try to fill in plot holes with speculation that contradicts the movie in order to make your argument.


All Picard says is that he's going to "put a FACE ON THE RELOCATION" he doesn't say that the council has to be informed that there IS a relocation.

 

[SeerSGB]

They also seem to forget that it would take the Enterprise two days to get out of the Briar Patch to even communicate with the Federation. The script is a complete and utter mess.

Wrong. 1 day to reach the patch, 1 day to reach the planet.

Dougherty lied to the council. They probably greenlit the particle extraction, but he hid the forced relocation part. That's what Picard wanted the council to know.

They FIRED at Data as soon as he found the holoship. Dougherty then lied about the incident. And they fired at Data, Picard and Anij as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was illegal and the council didn't know about it.

there's no evidence that Dougherty lied to the council. The entire set-up of the observation post(with a large group of Starfleet personnel) as well as the holoship indicates that the council was fully aware that the planet had a small number of inhabitants. Once again you're forced to try to fill in plot holes with speculation that contradicts the movie in order to make your argument.


All Picard says is that he's going to "put a FACE ON THE RELOCATION" he doesn't say that the council has to be informed that there IS a relocation.

Exactly. Doughterty didn't give a sit is Picard reported him, beyond he didn't want to deal with extra paperwork and slow down the process even more.

At best, you could argue that Picard might have caused a PR nightmare for the service and the council. Till a war weary population found out there was a fountain of youth in the Federation's backyard, and then you'd see the Baku get properly fucked over.

Edit to add:

From The Script (can't find the full clip online)

PICARD ... or understand that they were participating in the outright theft of a world. (beat) I won't let you move them, Admiral. I'll go to the Federation Council...

DOUGHERTY I'm acting on orders form the Federation Council.

PICARD (reacts, beat) How can there be an order to abandon the Prime Directive...?

DOUGHERTY The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this world. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring their natural evolution.

So the council knew and went ahead with the project. Why? I'll let the Admiral explain:

There are six hundred people down there. We'll be able to use the regenerative properties of this radiation to help billions.

 

[2takesfrakes]

... If the Baku had means they were not prepared to use then that's their own fate. They were prepared to use weapons to kill Data and presumably their 'means' was how they got rid of dissidents (Sona) in the past.

I see that you think the battle in the hills was classic trek but it was done so badly that I didn't enjoy it. The cliched kids losing his worm-thing and getting lost. People who we didn't know or care about were ruthlessly beamed away to safety? I mean who cared, where was the tension, the drama?
I really only care about my heroes.

"People who we didn't know or care about were ruthlessly beamed away to safety?"

Haha!!!

I do find myself agreeing with you, mostly. The Baku were walking that line between their Moral High Ground and some suggestion at having been driven to keep their technology and weaponry up-to-date because of the big, bad, ugly world outside. The whole situation between they and their exceedingly ancient offspring was entirely too ambiguous. If not for the one being Beauty Impaired and Picard going ahead and siding with the Pretties ... I'm not entirely sure an audience would know with whom to sympathize, or side with.

I suspect that the vagueness was deliberate, so that we would never know who the bad guy really was. But F. Murray Abraham was never truly a bad guy. Until he offed the Admiral, that is. After that, of course, he decided to strike his colours. But I liked how this movie went down the Moral Dilemma route, rather than a clear Goodies/Badies kind of picture. And if I've said this once, I've said it a thousand times: INSURRECTION is entertaining popcorn fare, as far as I'm concerned. I find it most enjoyable. And for what it attempted, more than what it actually accomplished, this particular feature is a fine feather in Jonathan Frakes' cap.

 

[sonak]

... If the Baku had means they were not prepared to use then that's their own fate. They were prepared to use weapons to kill Data and presumably their 'means' was how they got rid of dissidents (Sona) in the past.

I see that you think the battle in the hills was classic trek but it was done so badly that I didn't enjoy it. The cliched kids losing his worm-thing and getting lost. People who we didn't know or care about were ruthlessly beamed away to safety? I mean who cared, where was the tension, the drama?
I really only care about my heroes.

"People who we didn't know or care about were ruthlessly beamed away to safety?"

Haha!!!

I do find myself agreeing with you, mostly. The Baku were walking that line between their Moral High Ground and some suggestion at having been driven to keep their technology and weaponry up-to-date because of the big, bad, ugly world outside. The whole situation between they and their exceedingly ancient offspring was entirely too ambiguous. If not for the one being Beauty Impaired and Picard going ahead and siding with the Pretties ... I'm not entirely sure an audience would know with whom to sympathize, or side with.

I suspect that the vagueness was deliberate, so that we would never know who the bad guy really was. But F. Murray Abraham was never truly a bad guy. Until he offed the Admiral, that is. After that, of course, he decided to strike his colours. But I liked how this movie went down the Moral Dilemma route, rather than a clear Goodies/Badies kind of picture. And if I've said this once, I've said it a thousand times: INSURRECTION is entertaining popcorn fare, as far as I'm concerned. I find it most enjoyable. And for what it attempted, more than what it actually accomplished, this particular feature is a fine feather in Jonathan Frakes' cap.

It would reflect better on the movie if it was meant to portray the conflict in an ambiguous way, but I just don't see it. Everything from the beauty of the Baku, the ugliness of the Son'a, and the fact that "our heroes" all line up on the side of the Baku indicates that we are meant to see the conflict in pure black and white terms.

 

[publiusr]

Politically you can look at it either way. You might call them libertarians who are private property types not themselves native, and that this is eminent domain ("takings") of the state, in which Starfleet is to the Left--or that it is environmental exploitation, and, the Sona are to the right.

You can argue either side on this...

 

[Hober Mallow]

Politically you can look at it either way. You might call them libertarians who are private property types not themselves native, and that this is eminent domain ("takings") of the state, in which Starfleet is to the Left--or that it is environmental exploitation, and, the Sona are to the right.

You can argue either side on this...

And I doubt Piller had either such superficial political nonsense in mind.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

there's no evidence that Dougherty lied to the council. The entire set-up of the observation post(with a large group of Starfleet personnel) as well as the holoship indicates that the council was fully aware that the planet had a small number of inhabitants. Once again you're forced to try to fill in plot holes with speculation that contradicts the movie in order to make your argument.

So you're saying the Federation Council okayed the use of an illegal cloaking device?

and that this is eminent domain

No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.

 

[sonak]

there's no evidence that Dougherty lied to the council. The entire set-up of the observation post(with a large group of Starfleet personnel) as well as the holoship indicates that the council was fully aware that the planet had a small number of inhabitants. Once again you're forced to try to fill in plot holes with speculation that contradicts the movie in order to make your argument.

So you're saying the Federation Council okayed the use of an illegal cloaking device?

and that this is eminent domain

No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.

I'm not sure if they specifically okayed a holoship, but they probably gave Dougherty the parameters of "removal without violence and without the inhabitants finding out," which the holoship would do rather nicely at.

 

[BillJ]

No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.

For all we know, it is exactly how eminent domain works in the 24th century Federation.

 

[sonak]

Politically you can look at it either way. You might call them libertarians who are private property types not themselves native, and that this is eminent domain ("takings") of the state, in which Starfleet is to the Left--or that it is environmental exploitation, and, the Sona are to the right.

You can argue either side on this...

And I doubt Piller had either such superficial political nonsense in mind.

I think the movie makes it clear that he had something like the forced relocations of cultures(like American Indians) in mind. Unfortunately, Piller totally botched the dilemma to the point where there's no connection to that analogy, and he seems to have forgotten that TNG did an episode WITH AMERICAN INDIANS where Picard came to the opposite conclusion than he did here.