You don't like THAT?!

[Sector 7]

The worst offender I've seen so far are the "uniforms" from the new movie, which don't even give female crew members rank. I suppose rank doesn't matter when you're just there to be eye candy.

It is no secret that I love the new movie, but you are absolutely right. The lack of rank on female uniforms makes no sense.

For the record, Picard in the 'banana hammock' was not good, IMO.

 

[xortex]

I liked the third season of TOS. It was campy. I liked 'Spock's Brain' and the hippie episode. they weren't as bad as 'Wink of an eye' and 'alternative factor' I mean if you had a choice what to watch. 'Hey, out there. I see you'.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Then maybe you should stop basing your assessment to take someone seriously on what they are wearing but on what they are doing? No?

There's something a uniform should have called professionalism. If you saw a lawyer wearing shorts and a T-shirt in a courtroom, would you take him seriously at a glance? Same basic concept.

Exactly. And since Starfleet is a uniformed service, that definitely should apply to them.

Professionalism is what you make of it. Male officers are wearing what it's virtually a primary-colored pajamas. Do you think it's professional for a uniformed service? They look more like circus performers than soldiers. You have a problem with it, too, or you have it only with the female version? if so, why?

She could chew me out or fire me, but if she catches me staring it's her own fault.

Staring is ok. We are humans. I stare, and she is not even my type. I have no problem with co-workes checking out my ass when I use my tight-fitting trousers, too.

Kind of depends on the work environment, too. Do you work in a uniformed service? (i.e. police, EMT, fire department, coast guard, NOAA Corps, or the armed forces)?

Nope, I work in academia. But there is a level of professional dress required here, too, especially at conferences and the like. And miniskirts are totally kosher.

I agree that male and female uniforms should be made after the same pattern. But the answer is not long-sleeves, long-trousers suits for everyone. I have no problem with miniskirts, as long as they are optional (i.e. women that are not comfortable with them can use something else) and they allow for something similar for men (shorts, skant, whatever). Scottish soldiers in raided the fields of battle for centuries wearing kilt: I will not be the one to tell them I can't take them seriously because they look unprofessional!

They still got laughed at plenty of times, especially if they were defeated.

Everything can be mocked. British soldiers wore helmets that looked silly. Prussians had fucking spikes on the top of theirs. Samurai wore clothes that looked like women's dresses. No really different.

As for shorts or skirts, bare legs aren't professional.

Spartans, Romans, Scots, and a whole lotta other people disagree. My point being: professional dress depends on periods and customs. It is not set in stone: "Thou shalt not bare your legs". It changed, and it can change again.

I was replying about the "puking in one's mouth" comment about Picard's dishabilles. He may not be my cuppa o'tea, but I don't think he was horrible or something.

Sorry, but Picard in a banana hammock was something I could have gone without seeing.

Ok, but other people liked it. Make what you want of this.

 

[DevilEyes]

There's something a uniform should have called professionalism. If you saw a lawyer wearing shorts and a T-shirt in a courtroom, would you take him seriously at a glance? Same basic concept.

Exactly. And since Starfleet is a uniformed service, that definitely should apply to them.

Professionalism is what you make of it. Male officers are wearing what it's virtually a primary-colored pajamas. Do you think it's professional for a uniformed service? They look more like circus performers than soldiers. You have a problem with it, too, or you have it only with the female version? if so, why?

Makes me think of the webpage that makes you guess which are TNG episode titles and which are the titles of Christian Heavy Metal band songs. "Want people wearing tight outfits and too much makeup to moralize at you? You can turn on an episode of Star Trek, or you can trundle on down to the nearest Christian Heavy Metal concert -- it's up to you."

Really, Star Trek uniforms are quite colorful: you've got the Starfleet personnel in their tight primary-colored pajamas; Cardassians in all black Spandex and rubber; Klingons as a bunch of Hell's angels drinking in a bar and listening to Motorhead (with their women sporting enormous Klingon Kleavage); and the Borg, to borrow John Scalzi's description, "like Tin Man at the Goth night at the local leather bar".

 

[ALF]

Nice link, DevilEyes. That was fun.

 

[M'Sharak]

Makes me think of the webpage that makes you guess which are TNG episode titles and which are the titles of Christian Heavy Metal band songs.

Your score: 12 out of 12

 

[Disillusioned]

An understandable mistake. People tend to judge by appearances.

Exactly, you made my point for me. That's why the uniformed services push professional dress (among other things) so much.

How do you know? Did you conduct a wide poll or something?

Yeah, on another board we were discussing various fan service from both male and female characters and that happened to come up. Surprise, surprise, most of the people there didn't like seeing a banana hammock on Picard.

I'd say that there are quite a few people who are perfectly fine wtih some semi-nudity from a 50-something - or "old guy" in your terminology - who was as fit as Patrick Stewart was in TNG. And I think many younger men could only wish yo be as fit.

He was fitter in First Contact. And no banana hammock either, thank god.

Has it ever occured to you that you're not the measure of all things and that other people might feel differently than you?

Yeah. But I can only speak for myself when I say I could have done without seeing it.

We saw Gul Ocett in TNG "The Chase", and we got a glimpse of a female Cardie soldier in the infirmary in "Journey's End"*. Every other Cardie military person, including every one of them on DS9, was male.

Were you trying to make a point, or was that just a point of interest?

Professionalism is what you make of it.

It's a pretty universal standard here on Earth thanks to Western influences.

Male officers are wearing what it's virtually a primary-colored pajamas. Do you think it's professional for a uniformed service? They look more like circus performers than soldiers. You have a problem with it, too, or you have it only with the female version? if so, why?

Actually I don't much care for the TOS or even the TNG uniforms for that reason. Putting the security guys in bright red on TOS was especially dumb. But then everything was like that on TOS because it was the '60s and color TV was this new awesome thing and they wanted to show that off. I have more of a problem with the female version because while the men got to wear slacks and a shirt, the women were all wearing a minidress, something that would be especially awkward crawling through the Jeffries tubes with, not to mention just sitting down without crossing their legs.

Staring is ok. We are humans. I stare, and she is not even my type. I have no problem with co-workes checking out my ass when I use my tight-fitting trousers, too.

Ah, but when you're on duty, your attention should be on your job, not on how great your coworkers look.

Nope, I work in academia. But there is a level of professional dress required here, too, especially at conferences and the like. And miniskirts are totally kosher.

Working in a uniformed service is a bit different.

Everything can be mocked. British soldiers wore helmets that looked silly.

No, not really. Their major failing was that they didn't protect anything but the top of the skull.

Prussians had fucking spikes on the top of theirs.

Which were used to intimidate their enemies and might have even made a decent weapon if it came down to it.

Samurai wore clothes that looked like women's dresses.

They wore armor over really baggy pants and clothing.

No really different.

Except none of them are kilts.

Spartans, Romans, Scots, and a whole lotta other people disagree.

They didn't have pants back then. They had a cloth they wrapped around their hips and between their legs to cover that up and put a tunic over it. And they also tended to wear greaves over their legs for some protection if they had enough money for them. Of course that's ancient times. Much later men still wore tights. Standards have changed, thankfully.

My point being: professional dress, even for uniformed services, depends on time and customs. It's not set in stone: "Thou shalt not bare your legs on duty".

It depends on the types of duties you carry out and the climate. Slacks are pretty universal these days, or something a bit more rugged for out in the field or in a high wear and tear environment, such as the ODUs that the Coast Guard and NOAA Corps wear. When you're on a ship, you don't exactly want to be in shorts or a skirt.

 

[marylizz]

Oh, the great mini skirt debate. It shall rage on for all eternity... or until we give up those prejudices. Regarding both sides of the argument.

As to the original topic... I`ll be honest, I`ve never understood the Wes Crusher hate. Or the occasional Nurse Chapel hate. I personally like the miniskirts, but I would have appreciated the occasional trouser. And I like the TOS "pyjamas" in general.
Another big vote for Shatner's acting. I thought it was a very different style, but it suited him and the character.
A lot of people hate DS9, for various reasons... I personally like it. Except Kira, I don't really like her. But I don't hate the character, either.

But all these differing opinions make for interesting conversation, right? =)

 

[DevilEyes]

Were you trying to make a point, or was that just a point of interest?

That a bunch of men were walking around in uniforms that consisted of rubber boots, rubber armor that made their shoulders and chest look huge, and tight Spandex pants that showed off their butts? And that nobody took them any less seriously for that? And that I certainly didn't mind it.

 

[marylizz]

Were you trying to make a point, or was that just a point of interest?

That a bunch of men were walking around in uniforms that consisted of rubber boots, rubber armor that made their shoulders and chest look huge, and tight Spandex pants that showed off their butts? And that nobody took them any less seriously for that? And that I certainly didn't mind it.

I agree on both accounts. Didn't make them any less intimidating or serious, and I had no objections. None.

 

[Disillusioned]

That a bunch of men were walking around in uniforms that consisted of rubber boots, rubber armor that made their shoulders and chest look huge,

Just a theory here, but I'm going to guess that the Cardassians are supposed to have a large upper torso. After all, their necks were much broader.

and tight Spandex pants that showed off their butts? And that nobody took them any less seriously for that? And that I certainly didn't mind it.

Must not have been too bad because I never noticed. At least the few female Cardassians we saw weren't walking around in spandex catsuit "uniforms" no one else wore.

 

[DevilEyes]

That a bunch of men were walking around in uniforms that consisted of rubber boots, rubber armor that made their shoulders and chest look huge,

Just a theory here, but I'm going to guess that the Cardassians are supposed to have a large upper torso. After all, their necks were much broader.

and tight Spandex pants that showed off their butts? And that nobody took them any less seriously for that? And that I certainly didn't mind it.

Must not have been too bad because I never noticed. At least the few female Cardassians we saw weren't walking around in spandex catsuit "uniforms" no one else wore.

The pants weren't any less tight than Kira's. Maybe you just weren't the right demographics to notice.

 

[bluedana]

This is actually a serious question, not an argumentative one. Is the objection to the catsuit because it's formfitting? Because otherwise, at least T'Pol's outfit covered her from neck to toe to wrists. That doesn't strike me as especially "stripperific."

"Professional dress" does still vary from place to place. My uncle, who was pretty high up in the Ministry of Tourism in Bermuda, tells the story of how he was almost not allowed into an official function in New York because he was wearing a suit jacket, tie, and (Bermuda) shorts with knee socks.

Okay, I'll say it. I don't hate the ENT theme song. I get what they were going for, and the lyrics are pretty fitting. It was a nice change from the boring and forgettable instrumentals. And even if it deserved the hateration, there are buttons on the remote (mute, fast forward) that nicely solved the problem. Giving up on a show because one doesn't like the opening credits or theme song (as many people claim they did) strikes me as quite the overreaction.

 

[SilentP]

Okay, I'll say it. I don't hate the ENT theme song. I get what they were going for, and the lyrics are pretty fitting. It was a nice change from the boring and forgettable instrumentals. And even if it deserved the hateration, there are buttons on the remote (mute, fast forward) that nicely solved the problem. Giving up on a show because one doesn't like the opening credits or theme song (as many people claim they did) strikes me as quite the overreaction.

I couldn't think of anything to agree with on the thread, but I think you've hit one on the head there

 

[I am not Spock]

I like TOS season three. I think it featured some great episodes. And even the bad ones like Spocks Brain and The Way To Eden were fun romps.

 

[PhasersOnStun]

Personally, I think the male TOS uniforms are great. They're utilitarian (shirt and pants), and contain department and rank insignia.

Male officers are wearing what it's virtually a primary-colored pajamas. Do you think it's professional for a uniformed service?

You mean like these?

As you can see, the primary colored pajamas have their basis in reality. The US Navy uses vests and sweaters vs. shirts, but they still use primary colors to denote duties on aircraft carriers.

FWIW, I consider US aircraft carrier personnel to be extremely professional uniformed servicemen and women.

Yes, miniskirts were just the 60s style, and totally impractical. If for no other reason than the stockings would run constantly! But I think the male uniforms are great, and not nearly as outlandish as you make them out to be.

 

[Disillusioned]

The pants weren't any less tight than Kira's. Maybe you just weren't the right demographics to notice.

What season? Also, have any pics?

This is actually a serious question, not an argumentative one. Is the objection to the catsuit because it's formfitting? Because otherwise, at least T'Pol's outfit covered her from neck to toe to wrists. That doesn't strike me as especially "stripperific."

The form-fitting nature of them is what makes them stripperific. Just because the skin is covered doesn't help any when you can see pretty much everything that's underneath the fabric. And it isn't so much a reaction against catsuits in general so much as trying to pass them off as a uniform.

"Professional dress" does still vary from place to place.

Not amongst the uniformed services.

Okay, I'll say it. I don't hate the ENT theme song. I get what they were going for, and the lyrics are pretty fitting. It was a nice change from the boring and forgettable instrumentals. And even if it deserved the hateration, there are buttons on the remote (mute, fast forward) that nicely solved the problem. Giving up on a show because one doesn't like the opening credits or theme song (as many people claim they did) strikes me as quite the overreaction.

I'm with you on that one. The only point it got annoying for me is when they added that weird pop beat to it. Other than that I thought the song and the montage was pretty appropriate for what they were going for.

And while I hated her catsuit "uniforms", I've also never understood why so many people seem to hate the actress's appearance. The "best lips" thread in this forum is a pretty good example, with some people even throwing in an insult to Jeri Ryan for good measure.

 

[marylizz]

Okay, I'll say it. I don't hate the ENT theme song. I get what they were going for, and the lyrics are pretty fitting. It was a nice change from the boring and forgettable instrumentals. And even if it deserved the hateration, there are buttons on the remote (mute, fast forward) that nicely solved the problem. Giving up on a show because one doesn't like the opening credits or theme song (as many people claim they did) strikes me as quite the overreaction.

I'm with you on that one. The only point it got annoying for me is when they added that weird pop beat to it. Other than that I thought the song and the montage was pretty appropriate for what they were going for.

And while I hated her catsuit "uniforms", I've also never understood why so many people seem to hate the actress's appearance. The "best lips" thread in this forum is a pretty good example, with some people even throwing in an insult to Jeri Ryan for good measure.

I agree, why do so many people bash Blalock's appearance? I find it a bit irritating how she pouts out her lips, but I think she's an incredibly beautiful girl. To be honest, seeing her was what made me watch ENT for the first time. x)

 

[Colonel Green]

Worf seemed to value traditional marriage, and a lot of times for someone with those values, past partners outside of a marriage would be a dealbreaker.

I think you are confusing the western concept of traditional marriage with klingon cultural norms. Worf is surely a traditionalist, but a klingon one, not human. He was into honor duel and blood feuds, something you don't see often in western culture.

Worf was raised by humans. Why should his behavior be governed by klingon social norms?

 

[Astraea]

"Professional dress" does still vary from place to place.

Not amongst the uniformed services.

And even among professions that don't have a "uniform" (i.e. doctors, pharmacists, nurses, etc.), there's still a standard that doesn't vary. As a pharmacy student, I just had to renew my school code of conduct form, which includes an entire section on agreeing to "professional dress in the clinical setting," which specifically includes a number of things (no piercings aside from ears, no visible tattoos, no head covering unless religious, no short skirts, tie for men, closed-toed shoes) and some more intangible ("...and other dress deemed inappropriate by the school.") I've seen doctors in private practice who wear jeans to their clinic, but in any setting that's regulated by an outside person (inpatient hospital, etc.), there's usually a specific dress code.

I'll also say that I completely agree with everyone who hates the catsuits/miniskirts, and that it's not a hatred of those items in general, but because they're being used as a uniform -and only for women, at that. It's when you have "uniforms" for women that are so obviously slanted towards targeting the male demographic that it really annoys me.

As for the rest...
I like Ezri, but can understand why she annoys people. I dislike Ezri/Bashir, though.
I like the episode "Rejoined." And most of the Mirror Universe episodes.
I like the novel "Guises of the Mind." (Yes, that's "Nuns in Space.")
I like Bajoran episodes.

And a comment on a way earlier post, re: ancient modes of dress:

They did have pants in ancient Roman times, it was just that the Romans considered them barbaric; the toga was a sign of civilization/culture, as well as a mark of status. Also, the toga's not a good representative of a uniform; it's so bulky that you can't really move in one (especially if you wear it without pins holding it together, as you're supposed to.)

I will admit that the formal Greek military uniform's shoes look ridiculous to me. But dress uniforms aren't designed for practical use, anyway. See: http://www.travelpod.com/travel-pho...spiring-shoes-of-the-greek-army.jpg/tpod.html