Would you like looks, uniforms and such re-imagined?

[TheSublimeGoose]

Technologically advanced warp-capable factions should look futuristic, like something out of science fiction. Otherwise, the show fails as science fiction.

While I agree to a certain extent, we've have had plenty of world-building in the Prime Universe to establish tradition.

And tradition makes up a large portion of the reasoning behind uniform designs. All modern U.S. military branches' uniforms are steeped in tradition. Aside from utility uniforms and cammies.

There's no reason a uniform can't look contemporary while still harkening back to, say, ENT days... although the ENT uniform was clearly a working uniform. I wish they had established it in canon as such... what we saw on a daily basis was the working/utility uniform. Then we could have a service uniform (business/business casual), then service dress (formal dress), and then even mess dress (evening dress). But alas, Starfleet can't appear too military.

 

[RAMA]

Trek needs a new look so I'm all for whatever changes they've made.

RAMA

 

[Nerys Myk]

There's no reason a uniform can't look contemporary while still harkening back to, say, ENT days... although the ENT uniform was clearly a working uniform. I wish they had established it in canon as such... what we saw on a daily basis was the working/utility uniform. Then we could have a service uniform (business/business casual), then service dress (formal dress), and then even mess dress (evening dress). But alas, Starfleet can't appear too military.

We saw three different uniforms in Enterprise. The jumpsuit the crew wears. The suit Starfleet Command wears. And a dress uniform.

 

[Mudd]

Technologically advanced warp-capable factions should look futuristic, like something out of science fiction. Otherwise, the show fails as science fiction.

No it doesn't. You just don't like it. That's not the same thing.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

We saw three different uniforms in Enterprise. The jumpsuit the crew wears. The suit Starfleet Command wears. And a dress uniform.

I assumed the Starfleet Command uniform was a flag-officer-only service uniform. But I did forget about the dress uniform- the one with the white shirt underneath, right?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I assumed that the "Starfleet Command" uniform - the one we usually saw Admiral Forrest wear - was a 'Class A' uniform that anyone could wear, but typically only admirals did, and most of the rest of the fleet wore a 'Class B' uniform like what we saw Archer and the rest of them have. (conversely, Forrest could have worn a Class B uni if he'd wished, but usually chose the Class A.)

I used to think that the 'Class A' uniform WAS the dress uniform until the real one came along.

So if these Starfleet unis could be assigned equivalents in, say, the US Navy, they'd go like this:

Starfleet dress - full Navy dress whites
Starfleet Class A - the dark blue jacketed uniform
Starfleet Class B - more casual khaki uniforms

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Starfleet Class A - the dark blue jacketed uniform
Starfleet Class B - more casual khaki uniforms

Kinda the colors used for The Cage uniforms some 53 years ago.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Actually I was talking about the "blues" and "khakis" worn by current US Navy personnel.

So the basic thrust of the gist is this:

Normal ENT uniforms = US Navy 'Service Khaki'
Admiral Forrest's uniform = US Navy 'Service Dress Blue'
ENT dress uniform = US Navy 'Full Dress'

Assuming such a system does exist in ENT's day, that means at any time, Forrest (or any admiral) could theoretically wear a "normal" Starfleet uniform, although I'm guessing that if they did that, the color of the 'piping' on the shoulders would be the "red-and-white" used by the admiralty, instead of the command/sciences/engineering color scheme used by normal ship's crew.

Conversely, any Starfleet officer or crewperson could (if the situation warranted) wear the kind of uniform we usually saw Forrest wear, although again, their shoulder piping would be the appropriate division color (green/gold, blue, or red) and not the admiralty's red/white.

Am I making any sense here? I would try to illustrate it but I have no ability to use Photoshop whatsoever.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

^ Actually I was talking about the "blues" and "khakis" worn by current US Navy personnel.

So the basic thrust of the gist is this:

Normal ENT uniforms = US Navy 'Service Khaki'
Admiral Forrest's uniform = US Navy 'Service Dress Blue'
ENT dress uniform = US Navy 'Full Dress'

Assuming such a system does exist in ENT's day, that means at any time, Forrest (or any admiral) could theoretically wear a "normal" Starfleet uniform, although I'm guessing that if they did that, the color of the 'piping' on the shoulders would be the "red-and-white" used by the admiralty, instead of the command/sciences/engineering color scheme used by normal ship's crew.

Conversely, any Starfleet officer or crewperson could (if the situation warranted) wear the kind of uniform we usually saw Forrest wear, although again, their shoulder piping would be the appropriate division color (green/gold, blue, or red) and not the admiralty's red/white.

Am I making any sense here? I would try to illustrate it but I have no ability to use Photoshop whatsoever.

I'm still of the opinion that the uniform we saw the ENT Starfleet Command in was a flag-officer only uniform. Don't forget that most (all?) series of ST have had flag-officer specific uniforms. That tradition had to start somewhere!

As far as your U.S. Navy comparisons... yeah, that's what I was saying earlier- I'd like to see a range of uniforms introduced in DSC. However, don't forget about working/utility uniforms! There's a big difference between a service uniform and a working/utility uni. It might be fine to wear a service uniform as the UOD for bridge personnel... but engineering?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Don't forget that most (all?) series of ST have had flag-officer specific uniforms. That tradition had to start somewhere!

True dat. But we know it didn't apply during TOS, during which admirals wore the same uniforms that everyone else did. So at the very least it had to have started with TNG.

And to be honest, I don't particularly care for that distinction anyway. I don't see any logical reason why flag officer uniforms should be any different from what everyone else wears. Let them have their rank insignia, of course, but IMHO that should be as far as it goes.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

True dat. But we know it didn't apply during TOS, during which admirals wore the same uniforms that everyone else did. So at the very least it had to have started with TNG.

And to be honest, I don't particularly care for that distinction anyway. I don't see any logical reason why flag officer uniforms should be any different from what everyone else wears. Let them have their rank insignia, of course, but IMHO that should be as far as it goes.

It's logical that flag officers merely display their rank on a standard uniform- but there's plenty of real life precedent for other uniform modifications.

Flag officers have more "scrambled eggs" on the visor of their combination covers. In the Army and USMC their side-pant-stripe is different. Etc.

Point being, while I think a simple mark of rank is appropriate- most viewers are not like you or I. You obviously have knowledge of military uniforms. I've served, and collect militaria. Most viewers will need an extra hint that you're dealing with a flag officer. I think the later TNG/DS9 era uniforms had it right- basic uniform with some thin gold piping, along with rank insignia.

Speaking of flag officers- that's something else I hope they don't gloss over- utilizing flag officer ranks correctly. In TNG we never saw a 1 or 2 pip admiral.

Edit- I take it back. We saw Rear Admirals (LH) Jameson and Quinn... but their insignia was nonsensical, not in line with lower ranks, or future, higher flag officer ranks we got to see.

 

[cooleddie74]

I can't really think of any boring ENT episodes other than the XIndi wars ones.

"Precious Cargo," "The Seventh" and "Oasis" are probably mitigating factors in why the aliens haven't bothered to land. The Xindi arc inside the Delphic Expanse might as well have been Raiders of the Lost Ark compared to some of the standalone episodes in Season 2 which were about as exciting as a documentary on traffic laws.

I'm willing to point out a few stinkers, snoozers or disappointing episodes in the Xindi arc of Season 3, but the whole year being boring?

 

[Tim Walker]

If I understand correctly, ENT to TNG/DS9/VOY spans a period of about two centuries.

Consider the differences in military uniforms between the years 1817 and 2017. And, of course, there can be change over a period of only a few decades.

 

[Tim Walker]

Over the period of a couple centuries we can certainly imagine changes in style: clothing, hair cuts, slang, etc.

On such a time scale a few things may remain constant-symbols such as flags, for example.

 

[Noname Given]

Over the period of a couple centuries we can certainly imagine changes in style: clothing, hair cuts, slang, etc.

On such a time scale a few things may remain constant-symbols such as flags, for example.

You do realize TOS (specifically the 'Captain Pike' era - Circa 2255 in the Prime Universe) - which was depicted in the TOS episode "The Menagerire" (and the original "The Cage" pilot which was added to the TOS syndication package in the 1990ies); IS the exact era 'Discovery' takes place in, right?

 

[Tim Walker]

Yes, Noname Given, I do understand that. Which suggests that inspiration should come from the pilot egisodes.

As I see it, the pilots straddled a change in style.

 

[sojourner]

If you think the Discovery crew will be running around in beige ill-fitting velour sweaters; you're going to be sadly mistaken.

 

[fireproof78]

Eh, I think they retconned the appearances in TOS as being "adaptations" of the Adventures of the Enterprise's 5 Year mission. So, we'll likely see the "real" "historically accurate" uniforms of this period, rather than what was adapted for Federation audiences.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Eh, I think they retconned the appearances in TOS as being "adaptations" of the Adventures of the Enterprise's 5 Year mission. So, we'll likely see the "real" "historically accurate" uniforms of this period, rather than what was adapted for Federation audiences.

I get that you're joking, but for the record they didn't retcon anything (of course). DS9 showed the same uniforms in "Trials and Tribble-ations". ENT showed the same uniforms in "In a Mirror, Darkly".

 

[RomulanCommander]

Chronologically speaking, I think the everyday, standard utility uniform should look like The Cage/Where No Man Has Gone Before uniforms, but I would also be open to the uniforms used by the Kelvin crew, or maybe an updated uniform that looks like a bridge between Enterprise and TOS, as pictured a few posts back. But my preference would be a modern take on the Cage uniforms, in the same way the Kelvinverse (is that what we call it now?) did for the TOS uniforms.